Unbecoming Levity :: Why I am an Atheist

NOTE:
Please create a "reader account"! At present you can post comments anonymously but I may have to turn that feature off if comment spam gets out of control.

I reserve the right to delete offensive comments or spam, and ban repeat offenders.

Recent Photos

Month Archive

Yearly Archives

About the Author

BADGES AND DOODADS

My blog is worth $14,113.50.
How much is your blog worth?

RSS Newsfeeds

Main Page RSS

Sorrow RSS

Interesting Articles I've Read

Main Page » Sorrow

Previous:	Scumbag at Work
Next:	End of an Era

Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Sat 19 May 2007 01:17 PM EDT | Permanent Link | Cosmos

From Atheism to Catholicism:

My journey to atheism took about 25 years. It was not a journey fraught with disaster (any more than any average person's life is) but it was not exactly easy. In 1967 I was born, as all babies are, an atheist. My parents were Roman Catholics, and fairly devout ones at that.

Over the next 17 years or so I was indoctrinated into the Roman Catholic religion. I remember many, MANY, Sundays in church when I was younger. As my parents became busier and busier with work and life in general, we went to church less and less. Which was fine with me. I was hyperactive and having to sit in an uncomfortable pew while an old guy babbled for an hour on a Sunday morning was very difficult for me. Eventually our trips to the church were only occasional, Christmas, Easter, etc.--the big holidays.

My Dad had converted to Catholicism from Protestantism so that he could marry my Mom. He made clear to me in a number of conversations that his belief was not strictly Catholic. The most memorable conversation was one where he described a sort of "Gaea Hypothesis" where the Earth itself was what we think of as "God", a living organism with a desire to reproduce, which is why it had evolved humans, so that we could journey to other worlds and bring life there.

Dad loved Carl Sagan, and I have fond memories of watching Cosmos with him. I understood some of it, but not all of it due to my youth. When Carl gently explained with his "why not skip a step?" lecture about God and the origin of the universe, I didn't realize I was being exposed to atheistic cosmology. (For those of you that missed it, you should check it out, Carl was a wonderful teacher.)

My Mom, a good Irish woman, worked hard to keep my Catholicism strong. She sent me to CCD (Sunday school) until I flat out refused to go. Even as a believer, Sunday school seemed to be a joke... what a waste of time. And as previously stated, she got me to church for many years, right up to first communion and beyond. By the time high school rolled around, my parents were less than impressed with the local public high school that my sister had attended 7 years prior (apparently there was a lot of drugs there and other unpleasantry), so they decided to send me to a parochial school.

Catholic school was very different from public school, but even as an atheist now, I am pleased to report that my education there was of high quality. There was no shirking of evolution (it was a Catholic school, after all), and I remember only a couple teachers whom I felt really didn't belong there. The indoctrination, at the time, didn't seem like indoctrination. It is only in hindsight that I can see how Catholicism was drilled into me on a daily basis. By this time my family were not regular churchgoers, and the school priest was concerned about the fact that I would not be confirmed. So he encouraged me to seek confirmation on my own, which I did. I was confirmed with the name "Peter" and from that point on actually went so far as to add Peter to my name as a second middle name. Asked to sign anything I would write Charles Douglas Peter ... I thought it was pretty cool to have a second middle name, and wearing that name was like wearing a badge of my Christianity--Peter, the rock, upon which Christ built his church.

For a time, I began going to church again by myself--I was highly motivated (by guilt) to do right by God. But I had been motivated by guilt my entire life, and in experiencing the sorts of things every young boy experiences at one time or another, I was wracked with it. I agonized with guilt over the normal feelings a male experiences. I spent many a quiet hour alone and near tears over the eternal damnation that awaited me as a sinner. You see I was terrified of confession... I couldn't possibly sit in a little black room with a priest who knew me and pour out all my terrible sins, I just couldn't possibly do it. I would never be able to look him in the eye again. I tried to explain to one of my relatives once that I didn't like confession, and was informed "Well then, you're a heathen" much to my dismay. Thus when I went to confession, I stuck to stuff that was pretty unremarkable, and left the booth each time knowing that not all my sins had been forgiven. How draconian a system of forgiveness! I can't just drop to my knees and ask for it? An all-powerful being who already knows of each of my sins, and can read my mind and see how tormented I am, but who can't forgive me unless I go to the nearest service center and speak with a representative?

By my senior year in high school, with some of the early angst of puberty behind me, I was beginning to mature into an adult. At that time, I came to a decision that brought me peace. "When I go away to college," I thought to myself, "I'll take a weekend and drive really far, far, away from anyplace I've ever been, or will ever go again, and I'll finally confess these sins to a priest who I will never have to look in the eye afterward." Knowing I wouldn't have to carry this weight forever, that there was a way out, made me feel much better about it. The road to God's kingdom was clear, all I needed was a car and a tankful of gas. This decision brought me great peace, and with the guilt in check, I suddenly became much happier. I began to get along with the other kids better, and even became somewhat respected as an individual by my peers. I also stopped going to church, figuring I could take care of all that when I went on my "religious retreat next year".

To Nondenominational Christianity:

And so I went off to college. And there I became friends with people of all different creeds including agnostics and atheists. It was an exciting time and I was finding many new schools of thought that fascinated me. I was growing. It was in college that I came to understand that the "sins" I had been beating myself up over for years were an extremely normal part of boyhood. Before long I felt quite silly for agonizing over them, which in turn made me even happier. I decided to put the religious retreat on hold until I figured out where my life was going.

Over the next couple years I concluded that the problem was organized religion itself. I had become aware of the sordid history of my church, and of other churches and religions, and came to the conclusion that it was my personal relationship with God that mattered. I changed from Catholic to simply "Christian". I was very familiar with the bible, having spent years studying it, and felt I could try to live by some of the precepts set forth by Christ, seek forgiveness from God directly, and ignore all of the hateful crazy stuff that the bible was so rife with.

By the time college ended, my beliefs had changed again, mostly through discussions with my fiance, who was raised Lutheran. I felt that the basic moral code of Christ was mostly a good one and had become aware of just how poorly people who were supposed to be exemplary Christians understood his teachings and how they were in many ways waving the banner of Christ while behaving in an exceedingly unchristlike fashion. In that sense, his "church" didn't survive very long after his death, and transformed into something else. I was aware that many had called themselves messiah and there was no more reason to believe in their divinity than in Christ's. It amused me that if Christ lived today, he'd have been shouted down as a long-haired beatnick hippie liberal. I was aware of just how much of the story of his life was now in doubt, much of it having been edited in order to fit with earlier prophecy.

To Deism:

I was no longer a Christian. I thought that perhaps a God existed, but it seemed to me a being who had created the entire universe would have far, far, too much on his mind to worry over poor little me. It was silly. Apart from the love and support of my friends, family, and fiance, I was on my own. There was no almighty being who was checking off an attendance sheet every Sunday, and counting every time I looked at the fanny of a lovely lady and felt desire. All those years of agonizing guilt were years WASTED. How differently my life might have turned out had I not been so weighted down with the assured eternal torment that came with thinking boobies were interesting. But I was not angry at God, or the church, or Catholicism, or my parents. I was only angry with myself, for not coming to the realization sooner. At this point I was wavering between Christian and Deist. I still believed there probably was a God, but he was nothing like any God humanity had ever imagined. The very idea that a man or woman could "tell you about God" seemed ludicrous. Our knowledge of the universe was absolutely paltry. There were planetoids circling our own sun that we hadn't discovered yet, and we had not discovered a single extrasolar world for lack of equipment capable enough. And yet our sun was one of billions, in a galaxy that was one of millions of billions of galaxies... the universe was, for any practical purpose, infinite. And some dork with a 2000 year old book written by sheepherders is going to tell me he knows the mind of the God that created more than he could ever be aware of? Puhlease.

The following year we got married. We both felt, for our families' sakes, that we should marry in a religious ceremony. It seemed easier to do that than to explain to our parents that we didn't share their religious convictions. And, I had a certain attachment to my old church. Even if I didn't believe anymore, I loved the old building, and remembering eying the architecture with wonder as a young boy. So we jumped through all the hoops and did the pre-cana classes and finally got married after five years together. Being married didn't change anything about our feelings for each other, we were already devoted to one another and for years had shared a single apartment and checking account. Over the next few years I continued to grow (or shrink if you prefer) theistically.

To Agnosticism and finally Atheism:

Shortly after marriage I left deism behind and moved to agnosticism, and then finally to atheism. This last leg of the journey was achieved simply through study and keeping an open mind. I spent many nights pondering the existence of a God. Many Christians feel that atheists are people who were molested by priests or who had something really bad happen to them that made them doubt God. But my journey to enlightenment simply came through thought and reason. Not once did I ever come to the conclusion that God didn't exist because of bad things that happened to myself or others. My mind, and the minds of great thinkers, set me free from belief in a deity. And it was in freedom that I began to grow more than I ever had before.

That final transition from agnosticism to atheism did not come from arguments considering the likelihood of God, as put forth so eloquently by Dr. Richard Dawkins, but simply from an understanding of belief and science. Nothing had ever sprung into existence from belief, and primitive humans, seeking to explain the world around them, had come up with beliefs based on their limited experience to explain their world. There was a god of thunder, and a god of the river, and a god of this and of that, a final go-to place to explain that which was as yet unexplainable. These gods were inventions, we know that now, and we assuredly believe that our particular god is nonetheless real. Why? The universe existed for billions of years before humans did. Life existed for millions of years before human did. There are almost certainly other worlds out there with life on them somewhere. Why would we imagine that their God is our God?

It became clear that God is a product of man, and he still exists as a go-to for those questions that still are not answered and to comfort us. Through a god and afterlife, we are eternal, our consciousness the manifestation of an immortal spirit that will rejoin its loved ones who have passed on before when we die. The God hypothesis makes us live forever. And further, it addresses the common lament that life is not fair, God will mete out justice. If an awful, evil man becomes powerful and lives a long happy life hurting others, we can take solace that after death, he will be brought to account for his transgressions. The God hypothesis makes life fair. This is why the God hypothesis exists--to make us feel better. It is a comforting idea, in my opinion. But that doesn't make it true.

Which is where the science comes in. Science and good old Occam's Razor. A hypothesis only becomes a theory through testing, and the God hypothesis is untestable. First of all, most religions make quite clear that their gods will not abide being tested. Why? Because testing yields no confirmation. Get 10,000 believers together and have them pray over a guy with no legs and he will not grow new ones. Ever. Believing doesn't make things happen. Herbert Benson's recent study of believers praying for heart surgey patients found no positive effect on the outcome of the surgery and even had a slight negative effect for those patients who knew they were being prayed for. Secondly there is no evidence. Such evidence that has turned up (such as the Shroud of Turin) has failed under scrutiny. You can't get from hypothesis to theory without observable and verifiable evidence. Thirdly, the predictions of the God hypothesis are nonfalsifiable since there is no way to communicate with those "in the afterlife". Instead such predictions are painfully ambiguous so as to be rationalized easily, and serve as raw materials from which charlatans can build a living preying on the gullible or the bereaved. Which brings me back to Occam's Razor... the God hypothesis is an incredibly complex answer to the origin of humanity, whereas Darwin's elegant theory of natural selection and evolution is a very simple one--one that makes predictions which stand up to testing, and for which there are mountains of supporting evidence. Occam's Razor cuts away the God hypothesis, leaving the simpler and scientifically sound evolutionary explanation. There simply isn't any good reason to assume the existence of a supreme being until such time as evidence is discovered to support it.

And so I dropped the (perhaps somewhat pretentious) "Peter" from my name, and went back to being just Charles Douglas. So much the better, as Douglas is my father's name, and he was the saintliest person I ever knew.

Enlightenment:

Without a poorly fitting fairytale stretched over it, bursting at the seams, the world finally made sense. Things snapped into place and became clear. I could now ponder the origins of morality, religion, science, humanity, and the universe without the blinders of faith. I could consider modern moral questions (such as gay marriage, abortion, and so forth) without the infernally nonsensical mandates of the Judeochristian deity. I was happier than I ever remembered being, finding a remarkable peace that did away with guilt. I was an atheist, happily married to another atheist, and together we could do much good for our fellow humans, and lead productive and joyful lives together. It was only after becoming an atheist that I began studying some of the atheist literature that was available, becoming more familiar with Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, George H. Smith, Jonathan Miller, and the witty and caustic Christopher Hitchens. (I confess that I have not read all these authors.)

Some years later our daughter was born, and we agreed to raise her in a world without superstition and supernatural nonsense. She would be taught that she should be a good person all on her own, without a scary boojum that was going to "get her" if she didn't. I think it was good for her, because she is like me, a creature of guilt, and I am so happy to see that she isn't crushed under it like I was. Are we indoctrinating her? Perhaps. Young minds need instruction. So we teach her how to be a good human being and leave it at that. I've made quite clear to her that when she is older, if she decides to pursue a religion of one sort or another, I will love her every bit as much. The only thing I ask is that she wait until she is older to make that decision, so that she makes it with an adult mind, instead of a childlike one. Perhaps I needn't worry so much. When her world had a Santa Claus and tooth fairy in it, she viewed the possibility of God as somewhat greater than zero. When she was freed of those illusions her worldview became much more pragmatic and she seems happier with the knowledge that the world makes sense, even if life isn't fair and is sometimes very sad.

It was shortly after my kid was born that I made it clear to my parents that I was not a Christian. Mostly because my Mom kept hinting at a "christening" for my daughter. When was the baptism going to happen? And so forth. My family has respected my choice to varying degrees of worry, my father being the clearest. He summed it up quite succinctly: "your Mom doesn't like it but it doesn't matter to me." My Dad was incredibly broadminded and thoughtful, deeply philosophical, and just all around great. I really miss him. My wife's family is similarly mostly respectful of her choice, except for one of them who is convinced that I "corrupted" her. (This person would doubtless be surprised to know that Patty was an atheist long before I was.)

Living as an Atheist:

Living as we do, in liberal Massachusetts, where the basic humanist tenet of "live and let live" is alive and well, we are not persecuted for our lack of faith. We get along well with our neighbors and friends, and pretty much don't talk about faith unless the subject comes up. So far so good, but I read too much of the news not to see that atheists are persecuted in our nation. It is perfectly acceptable to say "I hate atheists" and to express any number of ludicrous stereotypes about people like me. George Bush senior once expressed his opinion that American atheists should not be considered citizens of the USA. My daughter still has to profess a belief in God each morning during the pledge of allegiance, or feel like an outsider among her peers and risk intolerant treatment. Every bit of currency in my pocket shrieks YOU ARE NOT AN AMERICAN at me with its boldfaced assertion that Americans "trust in God". In a court of law, my testimony must be sworn truth before a nonexistant sky-fairy or it is immediately cast into doubt. But that's fine. Most Americans are Christian, and though all these things violate the separation of church and state, I'm prepared to overlook at least the latter two. I know I am a good American, and that my testimony is just as accurate without fealty to some nebulous deity. The pledge bothers me because it is a form of indoctrination, but there are far bigger fish to fry right now. Just take a peek at George God-Told-Me-To-Invade-Iraq Bush for a minute to see how theistic thinking threatens us all when we fail to respect the wall of separation between church and State, erected by the esteemed Thomas Jefferson who was a Deist, not a Christian.

I know too many good people of faith to disparage faith itself, I can only disparage what some do in the name of it. And thus I believe that as long as people aren't actively trying to convert me or persecute me, they are welcome to their faith. I wish them nothing but joy of it. But at the same time I feel a little sad. Although it is a perhaps comforting thought when stepping out on a gorgeous sunny spring day to hear the birds singing that God made that day for me, and has a plan for us all, knowing that it all just happened according to basic laws of nature makes the day and my chance to enjoy it that much rarer and more special for me, and helps me appreciate it in a manner that a theist cannot. What a precious, rare and wonderful world we all live on!

But that's okay. What's important is that we each find our happiness while respecting each other. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I ultimately believe that humanity will mature and either move beyond theism, or at least move to nonconfrontational theism that concerns itself only with the metaphysical, and leaves the physical realm to science. It won't happen in my lifetime, but I'm doing my part to make it happen by being a good moral atheist and raising another good moral atheist. As a good (atheist) friend of mine once taught me, it was Ghandi who said You must be the change you wish to see in the world, he was right. So that's what I'm doing.

Peace.

Posted to:

Main Page

Love, Joy, & Happiness

Family

Creationism & Intelligent Design

Religion & Spirituality

Comments

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Maggie on Sat 19 May 2007 04:01 PM EDT | Permanent Link

Nice post, Chuck. I had no idea you were so wracked with guilt! That's a terrible burden. I do think religion is psychological child abuse.

This is my favorite line from your post:
"And some dork with a 2000 year old book written by sheepherders is going to tell me he knows the mind of the God that created more than he could ever be aware of?"

I decided that if anybody ever tells me, as an answer to a criticism of some stupid claim, that "the lord works in mysterious ways," I will point out that they can't claim to know some things without evidence and not others -- that there's no consistent system for their belief.

I've also thought about swearing on the bible in court. How can one do something so hypocritical and then give testimony? I don't believe in swearing. I believe that my word is good, and a person shouldn't need hocus-pocus to believe that. I would point out to the court that I'm not going to basically lie by swearing on the bible and then give testimony that I claim to be true. I'm going to be honest from the start.

But hopefully that will never come up!

Nice post.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Julie on Sat 19 May 2007 04:09 PM EDT | Permanent Link

I don't think an atheist is expected to swear on a bible. They're supposed to "affirm." I expect that many people see "affirming" as being less than swearing, but it's the most they can reasonably ask of you. Ask if they'd rather you lied by swearing, and maybe they'll ask you, if you don't believe then what's it to you if you lie. I'm sure they think it's a brilliant manipulation of logic, on their part. :)

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Anonymous on Wed 20 Jun 2007 10:21 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Thank you for your well expressed reasoning. I have similar experiences and have wondered how to put it down and you have done so beautifully. You are very lucky to live in an area that accepts your views. I don't feel my views would be so well received in my area or with my family. That is really unfortunate. I feel like I have to pretend alot in order to get along with others....just to spare myself the continual rejection and disrepect that would come from expressing my true opinion. I still go to church just to keep from being attacked by my family and friends. But your blog has really helped me to feel that I am not alone in my experiences or thoughts and that others have come to similar conclusions. Maybe one day we will live in a world where we can be treated in a "christian" manner without having to be "christian."

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Wed 20 Jun 2007 11:37 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Thanks for your kind comments. Hearing that anything I wrote helped someone else means a lot to me. Good luck!

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Antonio on Sat 19 May 2007 09:26 PM EDT | Permanent Link

"Maybe I'm an optimist, but I ultimately believe that humanity will mature...". Humanity? Mature? Yes, you are an optimist.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Sat 19 May 2007 09:54 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Perhaps. There are worse things to be.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Antonio on Sun 20 May 2007 11:57 AM EDT | Permanent Link

I mean: You are an atheist. "Metaphysically" speaking, you don't believe there is an "efficient cause" of world and men.
Then, why do you believe there is a "final cause"?
Because you are an optimist.
And... yes, there are MUCH worse things to be.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Paul (named after a figure in the bible.) on Sat 19 May 2007 10:17 PM EDT | Permanent Link

I see only one real inconsisteny in your writing. At the beginning you say "I had been motivated by guilt my entire life, and in experiencing the sorts of things every young boy experiences at one time or another, I was wracked with it. I agonized with guilt over the normal feelings a male experiences. I spent many a quiet hour alone and near tears over the eternal damnation that awaited me as a sinner."

At the end, you say "I know too many good people of faith to disparage faith itself, I can only disparage what some do in the name of it."

When people of faith believe in Eternal Concentration Camps, how can you be so content to live and let live? Either you did not really feel the pain and mental anguish of night after night of crying and begging god not so send you to a never-ending hell, either you did not cry over the realization that so many of your close friends were going to suffer in the eternal concentration camps after death, or, as is more likely, you are still in denial of the absolute attrocity that is modern Christian Evangelical Faith and you need to do some soul searching.

Nazi's lived and let live with the concentration camps and after it was over pretended they did not know the truth of what was happening. You just indicated that you know the truth, but you are willing to live and let live. Think about it.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by kuroSAVVAS on Sat 19 May 2007 10:34 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Now ether i misunderstood your arguments, or you misunderstood his. Doesn't the phrase "I know too many good people of faith to disparage faith itself, I can only disparage what some do in the name of it." satisfy you argument that he poster is NOT in fact content with what some people do in the name of faith? I am an atheist too, but i would be an imbecile to think that anyone with religious concerns is an idiot. Only people who do idiotic things because of faith are idiots.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Sat 19 May 2007 11:32 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Well perhaps I am being inconsistent, I am human after all, and humans make mistakes, but I don't really think so. The "concentration camps" of hell exist only in the minds of the Christians. The fact that they believe in them doesn't concern me. That's a little different than ignoring real concentration camps.

Fact is, I was raised by Catholic parents whom I love dearly, and who were good parents to me. They were not evangelicals. Yes I was wracked with guilt and fear, but not everyone feels guilt to the same degree. I had many Catholic friends who clearly had the same desires I had but who didn't let their guilt consume them as I did. That "guilty nature" is an attribute of myself. I still am wracked with guilt when I, for example, do something thoughtless that hurts somebody's feelings, but that is a part of my nature.

Does that mean, in my complacency, I am ignoring that at least some Christian children will suffer as I did? I don't know. Perhaps. I have no doubt whatsoever that if I poured out my fears to my parents they would have said "Oh Charles, God doesn't send little children to Hell, he will forgive you" and that would have been the end of that. Heck maybe if that had happened I would never have been driven to atheism in the first place!

I don't believe in stamping out religion like some other atheists do. I'm not going to attempt to force my way of thinking onto parents everywhere and try to stop them from raising their kids with faith. I think if atheists want to bring out a new age of reason and enlightenment, it is only going to be possible by winning the other side over, and that isn't going to happen if we try to force them. As the saying goes you get more flies with honey, and all that. My road to that future is to simply set an example of a moral atheist living a good life and to talk about atheism on my blog and with anyone who is curious. I apologize if that isn't enough for you, but encourage you to follow your own path as you see fit. I know many good atheists who feel as you (apparently) do, that religion = child abuse. I do not agree.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Paul on Sun 20 May 2007 12:30 AM EDT | Permanent Link

That was a good post, btw, (I apologize for not saying that upfront) and your assumption that I equate the doctrine of hell as child abuse is correct. I blame it as well as other concepts as being major contributors to wars started by Christians. It is not that non-Christian individuals are excluded, but I am arguing that "live and let live" with Christianity will not work with your own "guilt nature." That is the real inconsistency I see. Either you are inconsistent, or I am.

I have thought about the question of "live and let live" from a dozen angles long and hard, so I am not likely to think it is myself.

Your post hit home (at least the beginning sure did, although my turn to atheism was different.)

At some point, you may feel the guilt of "live and let live" or not standing up because you know some of the mental pain being inflicted. Either that, or your fear of reprecusions on your own family will keep you quiet... Been there.

Now, I will make a big assumption - After years of crying at night, did you ever consider putting a gun to your head to kill yourself, simply so that you would have the greatest chance of avoiding hell? As a catholic that option may not have been open to you. As a presbyterian, all I needed to do was take cyanide and spend the last moment of my life begging Christ to forgive my sins. Given that I had so many sins and was committing more and more with each day (remember that "thinking" about women is a sin that can land an evangelical in eternal damnation) the option was constantly in my mind. Trying to balance hormones and religion almost killed me. There were people who knew better but "live and let live..."

As an aside, do you think GW Bush as an evangelical did not at some level think that his actions would release some restrictions on allowing Christianity in Muslim nations? If, in his mind, he can save even one more Muslim from an eternal concentration camp, then wouldn't it be worth the risk? Could that be a major reason he asked so few questions prior to invading. The logic practically declares God to be on his side in the decision.

So, good post, but your following statements of "The fact that they believe in them doesn't concern me" and "I still am wracked with guilt when I, for example, do something thoughtless that hurts somebody's feelings, but that is a part of my nature" convinces me that I am right. In this respect, I think you are way too much like me and I see the inconsistency.

Paul

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Sun 20 May 2007 02:07 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

That was a good post, btw, (I apologize for not saying that upfront) and your assumption that I equate the doctrine of hell as child abuse is correct. I blame it as well as other concepts as being major contributors to wars started by Christians. It is not that non-Christian individuals are excluded, but I am arguing that "live and let live" with Christianity will not work with your own "guilt nature." That is the real inconsistency I see. Either you are inconsistent, or I am.

If my philosophy genuinely tells me I have no right to intrude on the beliefs of others, I am not capable of feeling guilt for "not doing more" to save some other person's kids from religious doctrine. I am capable of feeling sadness, and also hope, that like me these kids will be driven to reason, and that maybe my example will do some good. But no, I don't feel guilty that children who don't deal well with guilt (like I didn't), are suffering. Maybe that means I'm just a shallow person who isn't as humanist as he claims to be. I don't that is the case, but I understand if you do. Either way, thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Now, I will make a big assumption - After years of crying at night, did you ever consider putting a gun to your head to kill yourself, simply so that you would have the greatest chance of avoiding hell? As a catholic that option may not have been open to you. As a presbyterian, all I needed to do was take cyanide and spend the last moment of my life begging Christ to forgive my sins. Given that I had so many sins and was committing more and more with each day (remember that "thinking" about women is a sin that can land an evangelical in eternal damnation) the option was constantly in my mind. Trying to balance hormones and religion almost killed me.

Suicide is a mortal sin under Roman Catholic doctrine. If anything, my religion wouldn't let me take such an approach. Catholic doctrine states that God judges you by your intentions. The fact that I would have deliberately arranged the situation (in which I could beg for forgiveness at the moment of death) would be taken into consideration, and I would be dispatched to the underworld without further ado. Perhaps it is different in Presbyterianism. I also had depression issues when I was going through puberty but I never seriously considered suicide specifically because of my religion. Out of all bad things, come some good.

There were people who knew better but "live and let live..."

Well I can't comment on that because I don't know how many of those people you directly contacted on the matter. In my case, I was far too embarrassed to talk to anyone about it until college. My hope in contemplating sad stories like this is that some youngster googling for hell will find articles like the one I wrote above.

As an aside, do you think GW Bush as an evangelical did not at some level think that his actions would release some restrictions on allowing Christianity in Muslim nations? If, in his mind, he can save even one more Muslim from an eternal concentration camp, then wouldn't it be worth the risk? Could that be a major reason he asked so few questions prior to invading. The logic practically declares God to be on his side in the decision.

I don't think so. As strange as this sounds, I actually believe him when he says he was trying to spread democracy to the Middle East. I believe it because it is exactly the naive sort of act I would expect from him.

So, good post, but your following statements of "The fact that they believe in them doesn't concern me" and "I still am wracked with guilt when I, for example, do something thoughtless that hurts somebody's feelings, but that is a part of my nature" convinces me that I am right. In this respect, I think you are way too much like me and I see the inconsistency.

Well, perhaps it is inconsistent to say "it doesn't concern me", but based on my philosophy, it is not inconsistent to say "I don't feel guilty about that." Just sad. :-(

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Maggie on Sun 20 May 2007 10:54 AM EDT | Permanent Link

This is an interesting conversation. You know that my feelings fall a little more on the "vocal atheist" side.

We look aside in matters of personal choice: marriage, parenting, religion.

This is appropriate, as these are personal matters and we need to allow people to make their own personal choices and live their lives in a way that works for them.

However, there are situations where we naturally take away those rights, such as spousal abuse and child abuse, and it is generally not considered wrong to try to rescue somebody from a cult or a religion in which people or animals are physically hurt.

I believe a judge recently ruled against parents who wanted to give their son the choice not to go through chemotherapy to cure his cancer (which had recurred). I can't remember if they were Christian scientists or some other kind of crazy or if it was simply a matter that they were making a very poor parenting decision.

So what about religion? Right now it's not considered child abuse. But I believe the Christian religion is inherently evil. You can certainly find beautiful sentiments in the bible, in Christ's teachings, and in the religion -- the same way that daisies will grow on a dungheap. But many aspects of christianity are misogynistic, anti-humanist, and anti-charity. It teaches magical thinking.

I'm not suggesting that you badger parents about raising their children Christian. I'm suggesting that you be openly and loudly atheist, and since you do it so well, provide good arguments for why. I'll bet you'll reach at least 50% of many parents. In most families that I know, it's only one partner that's religious, and the other just goes along with it. And several atheists I know had the same benefit that you had -- one relatively non-religious and respected parent. At least it's something.

I know you have a family member who is obnoxiously religious. I know you don't want to hurt her. But you're not hurting her. She's hurt herself, and she's not making it through the stages of grief. Would you really be hurting her more by being honest and a little more open and vocal than you've been? This is rhetorical, it's very, very personal and it's your choice. I'm just using it as an example. Is it really hurting people to tell them that you don't think magically and you're doing okay?

Somebody close to me told me yesterday that she thought my parents were "worried" that I'm not religious. I have no idea if that's true. She said, "I think they thought it would've made you feel better to have religion when M was so sick." I replied, "and so would being drunk, but that doesn't make it a good thing." People truly don't understand that a person who doesn't believe in something pretend doesn't want to believe in something pretend. And I don't honestly believe it gives the comfort they claim. As I've said before, if Christians really believed in an afterlife, they'd be celebrating when people die.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Anonymous on Fri 08 Jun 2007 01:40 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Using science to prove god does not exist is just as stupid as using religion to prove god does exist. I certainly don't believe there's some old man in the sky with a check list, but I cannot deny an existence of a source. Whether the source begins and ends cyclically or not is irrelevant, because it still wouldn't explain or disprove anything. This does not mean I'm a teapot atheist. They seem to be very bitter about the fact that they have to acknowledge the fact that they cannot disprove something. Spaghetti monster & teapot arguments are just as bad as the circular thinking of religion.

Both feel self-righteous about the decisions they have come to, especially those who have come around after a long spiritual journey. You might want it to be over, so you can 'get on with your life' but that's not what life is about.

Can you truly prove love? Isn't love much like a spaghetti monster? You'll never be able to prove it to others, but you can certainly prove it to yourself. You might argue "Sure love exists, just look at history, look at all the people who have claimed to be in love! Do you honestly believe not a SINGLE human couple has ever been in love?" but that argument seems pretty stupid when I make the same factual statements about god.

The idea of god is just a placebo for your brain.

You can "know" it's a placebo and stop being affected, but why would you want to when you can "know" it's a placebo and still make it affect you?

No one will ever be able to explain life my friend. No one. To think that science has the capabilities is pretty funny, since the processes of science are still human made. There is just as much corruption, just as many things to stymie progress. A constant debate about a universe that remains the same by always changing.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Maggie on Fri 08 Jun 2007 07:00 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Nobody's claiming to use science to "prove" that God does not exist. There's no burden of non-proof. The burden of proof is on the believers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "prove love." I'm also not sure why you think that's similar to proving the existence of God. You're talking about demonstrating the existence of a natural phenomenon vs. demonstrating the existence of a supernatural phenomenon. That's rather different. I believe fMRI, or studies of people with brain damage, could easily be used to "prove" the existence of love, although I doubt anybody's bothered to do anything so obvious. I'm certain it's been studied, however.

It does seem to be, however, a natural phenomenon that Man is curious, man needs to explain the world around him, and until the advent of science and beyond, Man has used the supernatural to explain what he doesn't understand. I believe we can scientifically explain why Man invented God.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Maggie on Fri 08 Jun 2007 07:05 AM EDT | Permanent Link

Sorry, just wanted to be clear -- when I say, "I'm certain it's been studied," I'm referring to the work of Damasio and Hauser, who have studied the origin of emotions, animal intelligence, and the biological and evolutionary bases for morality.

Just because one ding-dong doesn't know, doesn't make the answer unknowable. Which is the argument you can use against pretty much any claim that there's a god because of irreducible complexity.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by JPB on Sun 24 Jun 2007 11:53 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Spaghetti monster & teapot arguments are just as bad as the circular thinking of religion.

That's kind of the point.

As for love, love is a description for a set of behaviors. Why would you have to (or want to) prove that you were effectively able to name a set of behaviors?

If that's your analogy for theism, then you're saying that god is just a name for a set of phenomena, so god exists because it is just a name and whatever the phenomena are, we'll call that "god."

Let's call UV radiation "god." Then we'll know god exists because sunburns can be observed and measured.

God exists, and children must be protected from his effects!

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by kuroSAVVAS on Sat 19 May 2007 10:29 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

I have to say, i really enjoyed your post. You are really an open mined person who seems to be at peace with himself. I also am an atheist but I'm afraid i didn't go through the long journey you described. My total rejection of anything supernatural came at a much more avalanche-like manner (you will have to excuse my English since i am Greek an English is not my mother tongue) and at a much younger age. I went through the phase of rejecting just the church and not Christianity (i was an Greek orthodox Christian) at the age of 17 and kept on believing in god out of guild mostly for another year or to when i escaped the social taboo of being an atheist (and in Greece this is especially strong) by going to college. Now, 22 years old and a Student of Mathematics (i think that may have had something to do with my current way of thinking), i have settled most of my rhetorical questions regarding the nature of our existence (i am not saying i have the answers to all the questions, just the ones i actually care about), but still facing the pressure of the Greek community regarding belief. Greece, unlike the United States, is still a Christian Nation (no separation of State-Church) but even though it is still taboo to say you are an atheist, it is even more so to make statements about the righteousness of being Christian and pure (like a certain President has made). My point is be glad that you live in a part of the world (i do NOT mean the US as a whole, rather than your local community) in which you can express yourself and not be judged at. I only wish i can raise my child (when that day comes) as a free thinker, and not as a mindless puppet that follows rules he/she doesn't even think are right. Sorry for the long comment but i had to get it out of my system. :) And i will leave you with one of my favorite quotes, from Don Hirschberg :

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

Re: Why I am an Atheist

by Abacquer on Sun 20 May 2007 01:05 PM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link

Thanks kuro, here's another one along the same theme that I've always liked:

If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease., -- Clark Adams

Post comment:

Format Type:
	Convert newlines
	Receive comment notifications for this article
Subject:

Comment:

Comment verification:

Please enter the text you see inside the graphic to post your comment:

You are not currently logged in. If you would like your user information to be displayed with your comment, please enter your login information below.

Username:
Password:

If you would like to post contact information on your comment, please enter your information into the optional fields below:

Contact information:

Name:
URL:		example: http://yourdomain.com
Email:

Please note: email will not be displayed on the site, only for the blog owner. If logged in, URL will only be used.