If I get an answer, I'll post it here.

You said "I believe in Creation.  I have a few questions for those of you who don't. If we came from monkeys, where did the monkey come from? If we originated from one-cell creatures that evolved over time, where did they come from? No matter how far back you go and say we evolved over time, there is always that question. Where did that organism come from that started everything?"

This is basically all one question, and it's what we call a question of infinite regression.  One can always ask "well where did THAT come from?"  One can even ask that question about God.  Fortunately that question falls outside the bailiwick of the Theory of Evolution.  The theory of evolution does not speculate on where the first life form came from.  The abundant evidence for evolution makes clear that evolution happened and is still happening.  But none of that precludes a deity.  If you choose to believe that the first life form was the product of the divine, that's fine, evolution makes no assertions either way to challenge or support such a belief.

Which is why it's a little misguided to argue that one must choose between creation or evolution.  There are literally billions of religious people the world over who accept the evidence for evolution and continue to believe in their deity of choice.  There's no necessary conflict between those two beliefs.

Regarding the rest of your post "I have even heard some one say that we evolved from non-living rocks. Unbelievable."

Now you are getting into a different subject, and it's not part of evolution, you are speculating on what in science is referred to as abiogenesis (life from nonliving matter).  The reason why it has that name is that there is no argument (among those familiar with the evidence) that the planet existed before life did.  At one point there was only nonliving matter here, and then there was living matter.  How?

It's an interesting question... how do you get from nonliving matter to living matter?  Abiogenesis isn't a theory, there isn't enough evidence for us to know for sure how the first life forms came into being (and honestly there probably never will be)--there are a number of competing hypotheses, and many of them have points both for and against.  But the belief in divine creation is also an example of abiogenesis... if it was a god, he must have created life out of something.  Surely it is within the power of a supreme being to take some raw chemicals and assemble a living thing.  I doubt you would claim "God couldn't do that".

The most likely conclusion is that the first life form was molecular, a simple chemical compound that could make imperfect copies of itself.  At the lowest levels it becomes impossible to distinguish between biology and chemistry--and it's quite likely the first "life" would be something we would barely recognize as alive.  You may find it unbelievable that we evolved from "rocks", and that is a mind boggling proposition.  However that a simple duplicating chemical compound might have formed in a sea of chemicals bathed in solar radiation and sitrred by tides isn't all that mind boggling at all.  Once you have anything that copies itself with errors, then natural selection kicks in and begins to result in changes to that "organism" over time.

All very interesting, but when it comes to the genesis event, whatever it was, we'll never have an eyewitness or a fossil that will allow us to know the nature of that event.  Fossil molecules, I suspect, would be rather hard to find. :-)

Therefore I don't concern myself with it, and I concern myself with what we DO have evidence for.  The notion of a supernatural being that actively affects the universe and created anything is an interesting notion... a pretty spectacular claim.  But for a person with an evidentiary worldview I can't possibly just accept such a claim without evidence.  Since the evidence is lacking, I'm not going to adopt such a belief (pending further evidence of course)--that's the reasonable assumption to make.  So there we are.

What I do note of the "God Hypothesis" is that historically it has been supplied as an explanation for the unknown for any number of questions and phenomena.  As science has advanced the answer to each of those previously divine phenomena (planetary motion, earthquakes, thunder, lightning, volcanoes, rainbows, etc, etc, etc) the divine has been found to be unnecessary, and the God Hypothesis simply moves to a new unknown, filling the gaps on the shelves of knowledge, to be perennially relocated when the books that explain those gaps are written and shelved.

The unknown is mundane.  There will always be unknowns.  And since the supernatural has been invoked to explain every single unknown in the history of humanity, the fact that it is invoked to explain the origin of life isn't very compelling to me.  The hypothesis doesn't have a very good track record, and the mere fact that something is unknown is not evidence for a supernatural agent.

So while I do not know what the original life form was, or how it got here, I'm inclined to think it was some sort of entirely natural event.  That's the more reasonable assumption based on what we know about the world.  I'm not going to make assumptions based on what we DON'T know... that would be imprudent in my opinion.

That said, I bear no ill will to those who do.  There are many great things religion has brought humanity (including, ironically, science itself).  So if you want to believe in a divine being, an afterlife, redemption--more power to you I say.  Especially if it brings you happiness or comfort in difficult times.  I don't share that belief, but I see no reason either of us should condemn the other.

Obviously I tend to get quite angry with people who ignore evidence and spread disinformation.  That's to be expected from someone who holds an evidentiary worldview.  (And of course, I am as human as the next guy.)  Which is why you could sum up my opinion on the subject at hand like so:

"To believe in the divine is a personal choice, and there is nothing wrong with it.  To ignore the evidence for evolution is to be willfully ignorant."

And that's all I have to say about that.  I hope you found this message to be a useful answer to your questions.  I'm actually not interested in debating theology (I think debating things for which there isn't any evidence is fairly pointless), but if you have any questions about evolution, I'd be happy to try and answer them if I know the answers.

NOTE: This story is chapter 3, the sequel to the previous chapter.  If you have not already read the first chapter or second chapter, you may wish to check them out first.

---

The visit with Ellan and Tyr had been long and leisurely, thirteen wonderful years exploring the seas of Regulus-4, a world Ellan had named Ouan. Mara and Kennis had swum as merfolk, scaled the few rocky crags of Ouan with the Hooth, slothlike ursines, and had even spent a few solitary weeks relaxing on beaches of lavender sand, their lungs altered to process the chemical soup that constituted Ouan's atmosphere.

Mara wrote many books, including a meditative collection of poems about her former lover Tyr. She had been nervous that Kennis would feel slighted, but her devotion to Mara was total. "I cannot possess you my love," Kennis had said, gazing at her in the amber moonlight of a warm night on Ouan, "and I will accept whatever part of your life you choose to share with me. It would unreasonable to assume that I should own your history. Besides, Tyr is remarkable, why not write songs for her? I thought your book was lovely."

"Oh Kennis," Mara had began, but she could not finish the sentence. Kennis truly was the love of her life, and she was ever reminded of it.

"I love you too, Mara. Who knows, perhaps you shall write a book for me some day."

"There aren't words to describe this love."

As the months passed into years, eventually Mara's thoughts returned to the notion of recreating humans on another planet--with the necessary biological alterations to survive there. She began scanning the catalogues of known worlds to find a suitable candidate. Though millions of worlds had been visited by Homo imortalis, few matched the criteria she was seeking. There were some good candidates, but they were precariously close to other worlds which had thriving ecosystems and nonsentient inhabitants, and given the human penchant for warfare and conquest, Mara had no desire to create a species that would become a scourge.

There was, she realized, a fairly awesome responsibility in creating a species. She had been contacted by a number of people who had expressed a number of opinions on her books on the subject, some positive and some negative. But she was not daunted, even when she reached the end of the catalogue with no acceptable candidates. She instructed Hab to inform her of new entries in the catalog as they arose, but so far there had been no match.

As the visit with Ellan and Tyr drew to a close she mentioned to Tyr the difficulty she was having in finding a suitable world one day when they were exploring warm coastal waters in a calm cove of one of Ouan's largest islands. "You've been through the entire catalog?" Tyr asked, her fins arranged in a peculiar manner that Mara had learned conveyed surprise.

"Yes, " Mara responded, "three million, one hundred seventy six thousand, eight hundred thirteen worlds. And counting..."

"My love, you are obsessed."

"Well you know me when I get an idea."

"Indeed I do. Well what now then?"

"I suppose I shall simply have to begin exploring worlds myself. All it will take is time."

Tyr was quiet for awhile. "There may be another option, Mara."

"What?"

"Long before I met you I briefly met an immortal named Bruk, a staggeringly old being who had taken up the task of cataloging every world in the Milky Way--with the intent of eventually leaving this galaxy to begin cataloging the worlds of other galaxies."

"Well if Bruk's work is already in the catalog--"

"It is not."

"What? Why?"

"Bruk is... eccentric and something of a hermit. In my entire life I have only known two Alphans, and Bruk is one. Suffice it to say these catalogs are kept in Bruk's private library. But I suppose you could ask..."

"An Alphan!" Mara had never met one. When nanotechnology changed a subset of Homo sapiens into Homo lentus, those modified humans had much longer lifespans. But the span of Homo lentus as a species was only five hundred years, as by that time technology had advanced to the point where Homo lentus became Homo immortalis--humans with an infinite lifespan. Those humans who were born as Homo lentus and changed to Homo immortalis were called Betans, and those rare few who were born Homo sapiens and transitioned first to Homo lentus and then to Homo immortalis were Alphans, and they were very rare indeed. The typical lentus lifespan had been 350 years, an Alphan would have been extremely old when the transition to immortality became available--at that point of course the aging could largely be reversed. But the Alphan viewpoint was often very unique as it was that of a single being that had actually been three different species--to say nothing of the extreme age of such beings. Mara had been born Homo immortalis, as had her mothers Chen and Cyrce. That put her in the majority of the species, a subset known as Gammans.

As an Alphan, Bruk would be nearly two and a half million years old, and if she had indeed been cataloging worlds for much of that time, she might indeed know of a planet upon which Mara could recreate Homo sapiens.

"How do you know this being?" Mara asked.

"Bruk is one of my ancestors, by twelve generations, we met at a family reunion. It was a bizarre experience. If you decide to make contact, I'd suggest you mention me--Bruk's got a soft spot for progeny."

That evening, back in Kennis' arms, Mara had composed a brief message to Bruk.

Greetings Bruk: I am the former partner of your granddaughter Tyr, my name is Mara. She encouraged me to speak with you. I am seeking a particular world--one with an environment very similar to that of Earth when it was inhabited by Homo sapiens, but fairly remote with respect to other worlds which are inhabited. Tyr mentioned your extensive catalog and I was hoping you might know of such a world. Please contact me if you are able to help. I've attached specific criteria ranges to this message. Thank you.

After running it past Kennis, she transmitted the message through her network receiver and was surprised to receive a response almost immediately. But it was not from the Alphan, but instead was being sent by a hab.

[You (and no guests) will be received at Bruk's hab in one week's time. Come to moon three of planet five of the red dwarf star at galactic coordinates (-28599.99876, -31200.09384, 112.54015). The visit is not to exceed 90 minutes.]

"It's pretty brusque, Mara. Why does she not ask after Tyr? Why does she not contact you herself? And she permits you no guests? Why do you have to go and see her at all? Surely she could simply transmit the data if she really wanted to help."

"Well she's an Alphan... and Tyr warned that she was eccentric and reclusive. I suppose I should be grateful that she is even willing to discuss it with me. It could save me hundreds of thousands of years of exploration."

In the end, Kennis couldn't deny that point, and so over the next week they had made their goodbyes to Ellan and Tyr, and after one last swim in the seas of Ouan, had reverted their biological adaptations, returned to their own hab, and set off to find Bruk on the other side of the galaxy.

The quantum transition from Regulus to the system that Bruk's message had indicated was instantaneous. The star was a massive red giant, long past its exuberant youth and into its twilight years. The fifth planet, a terrestrial sort of world, may have at one time supported life, but the vastly expanded sun had boiled away its atmosphere and left it a darkened, scorched, cinder.

Their hab arrived as Kennis and Mara shared a bath, and at their request displayed an image of the planet on the bath wall. Mara had queried the catalog before they had set off and found the world was not on file--it seemed odd to have no name to call it by. Kennis, however, quickly supplied one.

"Perdition?" Mara asked.

"Yes, from ancient mythology--a place of utter ruin and damnation. Why would anyone choose to live here?"

"Well, Bruk asked us to meet her here. I've no idea if this is where she actually lives."

Kennis' arms slithered around her waist from behind under the water, and drew her close. Mara smirked as Kennis kissed her ear and whispered "come meet me in the sunny flames of Perdition, there's nothing like a dead world as a setting to make a great first impression."

Mara looked back over her shoulder, cocked an eyebrow, and kissed Kennis on the lips. She returned the kiss enthusiastically. Is it me? Or did Perdition just get hotter? Kennis transmitted, and then yelped as Mara's hands found their mark, that ticklish spot just above her knee. Mara laughed then, full of mischief and easy familiarity.

"Mara! You wicked girl!" Kennis scolded playfully. It was at this point, typically, that the splashing began, and this time was no exception.

[Twenty minutes to dock]

"Hab! Kennis splashed me." Mara pretended to complain.

[I compute a 93% likelihood that this is because you tickled her. Again.]

"I fall for that every time," Kennis said, "you'd think I'd see it coming by now."

Mara turned to face Kennis and pressed up against her, her heady scent washing over Kennis. "Ah my love, of course you see it coming, and you let me do it anyway because you love me so." The kiss that followed was long and luxurious, and left their hearts thudding. Kennis gazed into Mara's hypnotic brown eyes.

"My love, if you do not get out of this bath right now, I fear you are going to be a few hundred years late for your meeting with Bruk."

"Well we can't have THAT. I get the sense that Bruk is a little preoccupied with time. 'Meet in one weeks time', 'The visit is not to exceed 90 minutes', la la la..."

Kennis leaned back as Mara rose from the bath, the water running in rivulets on her dark skin. "Well perhaps she chose such a cheery place precisely because she doesn't want you to stay too long."

Mara laughed as she reached for a freshly synthesized towel and began drying herself off. "You may be right Kennis. I suppose the location has an austere sort of beauty, but it is at the same time quite depressing. Can you imagine actually living in such a place?"

[Commencing landing procedures.]

Mara froze, and glanced at Kennis, who's face mirrored her thoughts. "Landing procedures?" she said, incredulous.

[Yes. Bruk's hab appears to be largely buried under the surface of Perdition's third moon. Docking will require landing, and deployment of the umbilicus.]

The umbilicus was a flexible docking tunnel sometimes used to connect habs when straightforward docking was not possible.

"Kennis... she DOES live here."

As the hab counted off the minutes to docking, Mara's cloud of nanos rapidly styled her hair and synthesized a satiny magenta sari for her with golden accents and, as always, decorative sandals. She spun once for Kennis.

"How do I look, my dear?"

"I think after you leave I shall have to switch from a warm bath to a cold shower."

After a brief goodbye kiss, Mara made her way to the man airlock. The hab touched down on the cratered surface of the barren lifeless satellite of Perdition. Bruk's hab was entirely buried under rocky hill, with only the upper airlock protruding from the soil. The upper airlock entrance was horizontally oriented, and would have to be entered from above via a ladder. With a whir the umbilicus extended, curving into place, and connected with Bruk's hab in a series of clacks and clinks.

Undaunted, Mara picked her way along the umbilicus and descended the ladder into Bruk's hab. The entrance chamber was dimly lit, and the floor resembled polished wood. Mara was not used to disarray, and was alarmed to see stacked rectangular objects in somewhat careless piles about the room, and everything covered in a fine layer of dust. Standing at the opposite end of the chamber was an odd looking woman dressed in a thick sweater, slacks, and boots, all black. Mara had never seen anyone like her--she was somewhat plump, her hair curly and gray, and fine wrinkles stretched across the skin of her face in various places. She was, Mara suddenly realized, old--which given the capabilities of the nanos meant that she had chosen to age. She smiled faintly at Mara as Mara walked over to her and held out her hand.

"You must be Bruk. I am Mara, I am delighted to meet you."

"Greetings Mara. Welcome to the habitat of Bruk. You have been granted limited guest access to basic habitat functions. You may call me Habitha."

It was a synth, Mara realized, an automaton composed entirely of nanos--a physical representation of the Hab itself. Seeing as Bruk lived alone, she perhaps found comfort in a synthetic companion of sorts.

"Thank you Habitha, will you take me to Bruk?"

"Yes, the master has been expecting you."

The master? Mara wondered. "Where is your master?"

"Most likely in the library. Shall we go? Master Bruk does not like to be kept waiting."

"Yes please. And do pass along the message that I have arrived in the meantime."

"I cannot. The master does not have a network receiver."

"What?"

"Master Bruk does not wish to be connected to the network."

Mara was stupefied. The network was essentially a compendium of human knowledge and experience, the idea that someone would not want access to it was mind-boggling to her. Habitha led her through several dark passages and cramped rooms, all piled with the same sorts of rectangular objects as she had seen in the entrance hall. "Habitha, why is everything covered in dust?"

"The master prefers it that way."

"Why are there piles of ... things in hallways and areas not meant for storage?"

"The master prefers it that way."

As Mara was becoming used to the odd musty scent in the air, the synth opened a hinged door and led her into a warmly lit and spacious chamber. There were a number of couches covered in worn brown fabric, standing lamps, standing shelves, and shelves lining the walls, filled with... "Books!" Mara said aloud, suddenly realizing what Bruk had scattered all over her hab. Thousands upon thousands of books, in print, on pages most likely made of a synthesized paper. "Habitha, why does..."

"The master prefers it that way." the synth said, with a trace of irritation.

"Of course." Mara said, taken slightly aback. Then the automaton began speaking louder. "Master Bruk?"

"Yes?" an odd voice responded from somewhere in the stacks.

"Miss Mara is here to see you."

Miss? Mara wondered. Nobody had ever called her 'Miss' Mara before.

"Who?" the strangely creaky voice asked.

"Miss Mara. Former wife of your granddaughter Miss Tyr?", the synth paused for a moment, but apart from the sound of rustling papers there was no response. "Whom you agreed to meet?", another pause, again met with shuffling sounds. "TODAY?" the synth tapped its foot impatiently. Mara couldn't help but smile, it was an impressive simulation.

"Dammit Habby, where did you put my notes?"

The synth glanced at Mara. "Just a minute, Mara," it said, and then wandered off into the stacks in the general direction of the voice, soon disappearing out of sight.

"If you would actually let me clean up around here, you might actually be able to find your notes."

"Don't touch anything, you'll ruin my whole system."

More frenzied rustling noises emanated from the stacks, followed by the sound of a large pile of books and papers toppling to the floor. Mara put a hand over her mouth.

"Well don't just stand there. Help me with this."

"Oh now you want my help do you?"

"Habitha..."

"I could put this entire hab in order in moments, but no..."

"Habby..."

"*sigh* Here they are. You were SITTING on them." At this there was a lengthy pause. "All part of your system?" Mara tried to stifle her laughter.

"Isn't there something else you have to do right now?" Bruk asked, clearly irritated.

The synth emerged shortly thereafter and smiled wanly at Mara. "The master will see you now, " it said, before leaving the chamber and shutting the hinged door behind it.

Moments later Bruk emerged from the stacks and approached Mara with a smile. She wore grey slacks, a powder blue button-down shirt, and a tweed jacket which had a bit of wear on it. It was immediately apparent why her voice had sounded so strange--Bruk was expressing male! For whatever reason, Bruk had expressed her male genes, causing her to have a male physique. She had chosen not only to be male, but to also be quite old... receding hairline, wispy white hair, and a neatly cropped white beard. She wore a pair of rimmed lenses over her eyes.

Mara was immediately alarmed. Generally immortals only expressed male when they intended to breed, or on rare occasions for sexual play. Mara began to wonder exactly what Bruk had in mind, and immediately backed away from her.

"I'm sorry Bruk." Mara said, holding up a hand, "I did not come here to breed."

A pained look crossed Bruk's face. "Oh for goodness sake. I didn't invite you here to breed."

"Then why are you expressing male?"

"I'm not expressing male, young lady. I *am* male."

"What?"

"I'm not a Gamman like you, Mara. I was born Homo sapiens, on Earth, as a male. My parents got me into the Lentus program when I was 16, and I didn't make the transition to Immortalis until I was 492. I wasn't just born an immortal female like you."

"But don't you have a standard immortalis genome?"

"Of course."

"Well, why don't you just express female?"

"Because I'm not a female!"

"I don't understand."

"No I suppose you wouldn't. Let me put it another way. Your appearance is Indian."

"Yes, my ancestors hailed from India."

"Right, but with the immortalis genome you can express however you like, so why don't you express as caucasian?"

"Well I could but..." her voice trailed off.

"But you're not caucasian are you? Your Indian appearance is part of your identity--you might choose to express differently in certain occasions, but your natural state is as you are."

Mara wore a chagrined expression. "I'm sorry Bruk, I misunderstood."

"Well, " he said with a sigh, "you wouldn't be the first. I'm a real hit at parties."

Mara giggled.

"I suppose Tyr didn't warn you either."

"No, she didn't. Tyr thinks I place too much emphasis on physical appearance, I suspect she thought it would be good for me to meet you unprepared."

"Uh-huh. She's a fish. And she thinks YOU need help?"

Mara laughed suddenly. Tyr was right, Bruk was quite a character.

"Would you like some tea?"

"I'd love some, but we only have 90 minutes, I don't want to take up too much of your time."

"Oh that's just Habby trying to manage my schedule. I swear she thinks she's in charge," Bruk said, and then raised his voice, "Habby?" he called, and then jumped as the synth materialized next to him.

"Yes Master Bruk?"

"How many times have I told you not to pop in and out like that? You walk in and out of the door like a normal person."

"Yes of course, that's much more efficient."

Bruk stared at the synth for a moment. "Go get us some tea."

"You had six worlds slated for this afternoon."

"Extend my schedule. After you go and get us some tea."

"Yes Master Bruk," the synth said and promptly dematerialized.

The miffed expression on his face was priceless. Mara laughed again.

Shortly thereafter, the synth returned, this time using the hinged door, carrying a platter upon which was a porcelain decanter, teacups, and various other containers.

While Habitha and Bruk conversed, Mara studied the old man. The very notion of an "old man" seemed anachronistic--his mobility seemed somewhat limited, and his appearance was not youthful. But he still seemed beautiful in his own way, he had a dignity about him. Her eyes kept returning to his beard--she had never seen a person with one. Kennis had expressed male once or twice, but never long enough to have a beard--and Mara preferred Kennis in her natural state anyway. It seemed so strange a thing and yet it made Bruk appear distinguished--erudite. Now why should that be? Mara wondered. Why does a beard connote erudition?

His eyes were bright and blue and he seemed sharp and aware, but there was also an air of confusion about him. Absentmindedness was unheard of among immortals. Even if he should allow his body to age to some degree, that would not explain why he wouldn't remember his appointment with her. Or where he kept his notes. Or even why he had to take notes in the first place. The biology of the immortal brain was finite--it simply could not retain all the information in an infinite life--a large portion of the memory was stored in the data core of the hab, and maintained by a network of nanos which could transmit the information over considerable distances. The hab-core was quantum entangled to a backup core in a secure location, so in the event of the loss of a hab, the immortal's memory would not be lost. The communication between the immortal's brain, the nanos, and the habcores was essentially instantaneous--providing an infinite memory that was always accessible. To the immortal it was simply "remembering"--there was no effort involved, it simply happened--and had been designed that way, the immortal never knew whether her memories were biologically based or in "offsite storage". Even though Bruk had no network port, such a device was not a necessary component in the retrieval of memory.

"Well," Bruk said, after the tea had been set out and Habitha had departed, "before we talk planets, I imagine you have some questions for me. There are always questions. Anything else about me being male? Would you like to touch it?"

Mara thought that quite a nonsequitur and wondered just what exactly he was referring to. "Touch it?"

"My beard, " he said, "Gammans always seem to be preoccupied with it."

Mara felt a little embarrassed--she had been staring after all. "In truth, I have never seen a person with one. Yes, may I touch it?"

Bruk smiled and leaned forward to allow Mara to lightly caress his bearded chin. She wrinkled her nose slightly and drew her hand back.

"It's soft yet bristly, and it tickles to the touch. I think it quite charming."

"The ladies loved it back in the day. Anything else?"

"Why have you chosen to age?"

"Getting old is part of the human condition. I was much more "aged" than this when I made the transition to immortalis. But I couldn't bring myself to unwind all the years and go back to being the equivalent of 30 years old again. My life was almost over when I became immortal... being old was part of who I was. I wound the clock back to my 120's though, which is when I still had strength, mobility, and so forth. It would be like you going back to being an adolescent again."

"But is there not some discomfort in the age you have chosen?"

"Yes. But an eternally happy and painless existence is not natural."

"Excuse me?"

"How can one truly know happiness or pleasure, if one hasn't also known sadness or pain?"

"But a life need not have constant physical pain to make one appreciate happiness. I lost my beautiful Tyr many millennia ago and I am still saddened by it."

There was a brief mistiness in Bruk's eyes, as if he were seeing something long since gone. He came out of it almost immediately. "It pleases me to be a crotchety old fart full of discomfort. Anything else?"

"Why do you keep books?"

Bruk looked baffled. "To read, girl. Why else would I keep books?"

"You READ them?"

"Well of course I read them. How else am I going to learn what is in them?"

"But you could read them instantaneously if you had a network port, and then you wouldn't have to fill your hab with them."

"I'm a human being not a computer. Knowledge isn't supposed to just magically appear in your brain, you are supposed to work for it! Besides, I *like* reading books. Have you ever tried it?"

"Well. No not like you do. I suppose I should try it, perhaps I would like it too."

"Damn right you should. Everyone should. Why if I didn't read books you wouldn't be here."

"What do you mean?" Mara asked.

Bruk closed his eyes for a moment, and Mara instinctively took it as him sampling the network, but immediately realized that couldn't be the case. He was trying to remember something. Keeping his eyes closed, he began to recite, and Mara heard her own words coming from his mouth:

"...The truth alas I must concede
Both are blossoms, both are reeds,
Both the same, with different needs--
From the pistil comes no seed."

Opening his eyes, he took on an apologetic look "sorry if I didn't get it right."

"You read my book, Songs of Tyr?"

"Yes, and I savored every word. Marvelous poetry. It was pleasing to hear about Tyr from such a unique perspective. Poetry, there's a perfect example of something that should be experienced in its proper meter, slowly and thoughtfully. Fifty thousand years of love should not appear fully formed as a blip in the mind."

"My Kennis seemed to like it."

"Maybe SHE should read a book."

"I think she's just fine the way she is." Mara stated plainly. She did not like the implication that simply because she (or particularly Kennis) hadn't experienced something Bruk had, they were doing something wrong.

"But not Tyr." Bruk added, with a bit of challenge in his voice. Mara realized he didn't like the fact that she and Tyr were not together, and seemed to have directed that displeasure at Kennis. She found his rapid changes in direction and mood somewhat unsettling--he definitely didn't seem to think like any immortal she knew.

"I am not with Kennis because I thought there was something wrong with Tyr. As you should well know since you read Songs of Tyr, Tyr wanted something from me I could not give her. After awhile this began to make her unhappy, and I couldn't bear being the source of her unhappiness. So I let her go, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done. I will not sit here and be judged for it." She picked up a napkin from the platter and dabbed at her eyes.

"Well, " Bruk said "then you did what you thought was best for Tyr, and I can't begrudge you that. I'm sorry Mara. And she seemed quite happy with that girl... what's her name?"

"Ellan. How do you not know her name? You seem to have trouble with recollection--keeping notes, forgetting appointments, names, and so forth. Is your brain... damaged?"

"Damaged? No my brain isn't damaged. It's just not nano-assisted."

Mara's eyes widened in surprise. "You don't have nanomemory? But... how do you... remember?"

"Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I forget."

"But why would you--"

"Sometimes," he said, drawing in a pregnant breath, "you want to forget. And besides, I can't remember many of the details of my early life--this too is part of the human condition. I couldn't go from my natural state to a state of total recall. I don't need all those memories to be who I am."

Mara was speechless.

"Look. This tea we're about to have. It's a chamomile tea. Have you ever had chamomile tea before?"

"Yes, I had chamomile tea with Kennis and her friend Lispeth 113,761 years ago. We thought it might be a lark to eat a meal, so we had a breakfast of synthetic fruits and bread and listened to Lispeth's latest symphony--"

"This is exactly what I am talking about. Why do you NEED that memory? What has that got to do with anything? You're so busy data dumping the details of the event you forgot to say what the tea was like. Or if you even liked it."

"Perhaps if I had not been interrupted..." Mara said, tilting her head and cocking an eyebrow at Bruk with a little half smile.

Bruk smirked, "patience has never been a virtue of mine."

"Well, two and a half million years of impatience... it appears there's a test of wills between you and eternity."

"Yes, but I intend to win."

Mara laughed and then looked about alarmed as the room trembled slightly. "What was THAT?"

"Oh that's just the star. It will soon nova."

"Nova?!"

"Yes, at some point in the next few thousand years, it will catastrophically destroy itself, the end of its life. It's why Habitha is always after me about my schedule. I've wanted to complete my galactic survey before I die."

Mara knew that there were some rare few immortals that had chosen to die--some had simply become tired of living itself, others felt that they had accomplished everything they wanted to. Others had lost loved ones to tragic accidents and did not wish to continue existing afterward. That the alphan wished to die was nonetheless a completely alien concept to her.

"You choose to live here in Perdition because you wish to die?"

"Perdition?"

"Sorry, it's the name Kennis gave this star system--it had no name on record."

Bruk chuckled, "oh I like her, she sounds a sport. Much better than the name I chose--much better indeed. But yes, when Perdition dies, so will I."

He regarded her silently. The question was obvious but it would have been an invasion of his privacy to ask it. "You doubtless want to know why."

She nodded.

"I'm old, Mara. I don't just mean in appearance, I am incalculably old. Everything I recognize from my entire species has changed into something else. Earth itself is an alien ecosystem--there are no humans there. I've explored the galaxy for millions of years and made countless discoveries of worlds, other life forms, perplexing and beautifully complex planetary systems. I have discovered so much that the process of discovery itself holds no pleasure for me. What is there when newness itself is tedious?"

"You need not devote yourself to discovery. Why not create? Art? Music? Books? Share your discoveries with others and hear their thoughts? As it is you spend your life utterly alone with only a synth for companionship, why not seek a partner--someone to share your life with?"

"These are all arguments I've heard before, from Habitha herself. I had a partner Mara, a long time ago--another Alphan named Jyreeza. We were in the Lentus Program together, and I loved her dearly. We were both very old when the immortalis conversion became available, all of our children had undergone the process and they asked us to as well. We looked forward to seeing them grow, and an infinite future together seemed like paradise at the time."

Mara could sense what was coming--the immortalis conversion according to historical record had a 5% failure rate. "Jyreeza did not survive the conversion?"

He nodded, "and I've lived an eternity without her. I do not want another partner. I've lived a long time, Mara, and I think now, it is long enough. Death is part of what it means to be human."

She did not agree, but kept her thoughts to herself--it was an intensely private thing, and it was not her place to intrude. "I'm sorry, Bruk, I didn't mean to pry."

"That's fine. Take a sip of your tea before it gets cold."

She did so, and found it fabulously superior to the last chamomile tea she had sampled. "This is superb!"

"It's not synthetic. There's a greenhouse in my hab and I've grown the plants myself from the genetic database."

The room trembled again. Mara, are you feeling that? Hab says this star is pretty unstable. We probably shouldn't stay long. Kennis transmitted.

"Bruk, Kennis is concerned about Perdition putting us at risk."

"Tell her not to worry, Habitha has positioned an extensive network of probes around the star and she will be able to tell several hours before it goes nova."

Darling, Bruk's hab is monitoring the star closely and will be able to warn us well in advance of any actual danger. See you soon my love.

Keeping the bath warm for you... Kennis responded. Mara could almost feel Kennis smirking.

After they had finished the tea, Bruk led Mara through a series of hinged doors to another room full of bookshelves--these were filled with notebooks in which Bruk's observations of every world he had visited were recorded. Unlike the library, this room was fastidiously tidy. On a low circular table four notebooks had been set out.

"I had Habitha set these out earlier. There are several worlds in each one but among them four candidates which I think you will like of which one is my particular favorite, a world I called Shiran. Would you like to make a quick hop there to have a look at it?"

"Your hab is integrated into the mountainside... how will we do this? For that matter how have you been doing it all along?"

"Habitha is a hab within a hab, the outer hab is a relatively thin layer of infrastructure. You've been inside the inner hab for most of your time here--something I call the pod. The pod hops directly from inside the hab to any location of my choosing."

"But hops are imprecise--how do you get the pod back inside the hab?"

"The outer hab contains nanobeacons that communicate with the pod, allowing the pod to orient itself perfectly and hop back inside the outer hab."

"That's ingenious! Why have I never heard of this technology?"

"Because I haven't published it. Habitha maintains digital copies of my work which are set to be published the instant Perdition goes nova--my last contribution to my species. Now would you like to see Shiran?"

Bruk jumped suddenly as Habitha materialized. "Dammit woman, haven't I asked you not to do that?"

The synth pointedly ignored his irritation. "I've finished cleaning up the tea cups and have reorganized your schedule, master Bruk. But there is a failure in the nanobeacon network."

"A failure? What's this now?"

"The star's last disturbance seems to have disrupted the nanobeacons. I am effecting repairs but the pod cannot hop during the repair process."

Bruk handed the four notebooks to Mara. "Well, I guess you'll have to go without me then, everything you will need will be in there. Do you some good to read it."

There was another tremble, and at this a number of notebooks fell from their shelves in a heap.

"And it looks like I have plenty to do anyway." Bruk noted ruefully.

"Don't touch anything," Habitha said sharply, "you will mess up my whole system." She brushed past Bruk and began sorting the fallen notebooks.

Mara laughed. "Bruk, why don't you come with Kennis and I? We'll hop to Shiran and have a look, and then bring you back."

"Well..." Bruk began.

"Oh please, would you get him out of my hair for an afternoon? That would be marvelous." Habitha said without looking up.

"Habby. You know I prefer to stay here."

"Well I suppose you and I could spend the afternoon going over your schedule, " Habitha said sweetly with a sardonic smile, "if you think you'd enjoy that more."

Bruk held up his hands "fine, fine, fine." He looked at Mara, "you're sure you don't mind?"

"Not at all. We'd love to have you. I'll just let Kennis know you are coming--she's in the bath."

Habitha made a shooing motion with her hands. "Go on, go on, I've work to do and you are in my way."

Minutes later Bruk and Mara reentered her own hab. Having been warned in advance by Mara, Kennis was not at all surprised by Bruk's appearance, but strangely he was surprised at hers. She had adorned a small tiara, gold bracelets, and necklaces of jade beads and bits of coral. Mara thought she looked lovely. Bruk thought otherwise.

"Hello Bruk, welcome to our hab. I am Kennis. Mara has told me about your visit. I'm pleased that you have decided to visit with us."

"Goodness, girl, put on some clothes!" he responded, averting his eyes.

"What?" she said glancing down at herself "Am I so repulsive?"

"Would you please dress?"

Bruk's a bit eccentric Kennis, maybe you should put something on. *I* think you are beautiful. Mara transmitted.

"Very well, if you insist. I apologize for offending you though I don't see what the problem is." She placed her hands on her hips and waited as a mist of nanos surrounded her and synthesized a satin kimono, turquoise with lapis accents. "Better?"

Bruk glanced at her, "Much. Sorry Kennis, in my day, people didn't greet guests unclothed--that was reserved for lovers."

"I apologize."

"No that's... that's fine." He seemed quite shaken, much to Mara and Kennis' amusement.

"Well it's good to know that if I get tired of your presence I have a sure fire way to get rid of you." Kennis said, with a smirk.

"Kennis!" Mara said, partly shocked but still laughing.

Bruk glanced at Mara, "Oh I *do* like her."

After the pleasantries, including Kennis touching Bruk's beard, they retired to the atrium where Bruk read the coordinates of Shiran from his notebook, aloud, and the hab disengaged from his own, lifted off and made the hop. Immediately an immense swirl of stars became visible through the windows of the atrium. Both Mara and Kennis were transfixed by it--it was a galaxy.

"Where are we?" Mara asked.

"We are in the Small Magellanic Cloud, you are looking at the Milky Way." Bruk said, "Hab, can we have a view of Shiran?"

An image appeared on the atrium wall of a terrestrial world--blue and green and dotted with white clouds.

"Shiran." Bruk said simply.

"It's beautiful, Bruk. How does it come by this environment? Is that vegetation?"

"It is. From my survey here I was able to discern that Shiran was once inhabited by a sentient species--ruins on the surface make this clear. But they were wiped out by a disease that they were unable to cure. All that remains is some limited vegetation and microbial life. The biochemistry is very similar to that of Earth--you should be able to create humans here with minor alterations to allow them to metabolize this vegetation. You could also seed the environment with various species from Earth, but of course they'll all need to be altered slightly. Gravity is 1.1 G, rotation period is 31 hours, two satellites, one very tiny (350 km diameter--probably a captured asteroid) and one much larger (2100 km diameter.) Atmospheric makeup is similar to Earth's but has enough differences that genetic modification will be required. Not too bad though. All in all it's a perfect fit for your requirements. Would you like to go down and have a look?"

"Yes! It sounds marvelous. Kennis, will you come?"

"Of course, darling."

[Proximity warning. A traveler is arriving.] Hab transmitted.

"What?" Mara said aloud, while Kennis glanced out the window.

Bruk looked at her strangely. "I didn't say anything," he said.

"Hab, Bruk has no network port, please address all common broadcasts vocally."

"Yes Mara, " the disembodied voice of the hab filled the air, " apologies Bruk, I was not aware that you were not network enabled. Welcome to the hab of Mara and Kennis, you have been granted full guest access to all hab functions."

"Thank you, please repeat your last broadcast."

"Proximity warning. A traveler is arriving. Vehicle has hopped in and is entering orbit around Shiran."

Mara was crestfallen--"could the original inhabitants of this world be returning to claim it?"

"No, I don't understand it. From my brief survey I saw no evidence of a space faring culture. Hab, can we have a view of the visitor?"

The image on the atrium wall flickered and showed an oblong vessel, roughly ovoid, with no visible markings or windows--just a pair of hatches and an otherwise featureless hull of dark gray metal.

"What is that?" Mara asked.

"The pod." Bruk said, and with sudden realization, "Damn you Habitha."

"The what?" Kennis asked.

Hab began vocalizing again, "Mara, you asked to be notified of new entries in the planetary catalog. Catalog size has just increased by 1,512,378 worlds."

"DAMN YOU HABITHA!" Bruk exploded. "Nanobeacon failure my foot! Dammit!"

"Incoming data stream from other vessel. Vessel identifies itself as the hab of Bruk, and requests access rights to manifest a synth. Mara or Kennis, will you receive this stream?" Hab announced.

"Yes." Kennis and Mara said together. Instantly, Habitha appeared in a swirl of nanos.

"Your works have been published in accordance with your wishes, master Bruk."

"They were supposed to be published in the event of my death, Habitha."

"Your specific instructions were to publish them when Perdition became a nova."

"Yes, and I was supposed to be there at the time."

"I am aware of that."

"You lied to me, Habby."

"Yes I did. I carried out my prime directive through the only means you left me."

A hab's prime directive was to protect its occupants at all costs.

"The prime directive includes a right to die clause, Habitha."

"Bruk, " the synth said, taking on an unsettlingly human tone, " you coded me to look like her, think like her, and act like her. What would she have done?"

His eyes filled with tears. "Habitha, please delete all iterations of the Kindred program."

Habitha nodded and said with a smile, "I think that's best." Immediately the synth collapsed into a cloud of nanos that streamed away through various vents.

"Goodbye Jyreeza, " he whispered softly.

Elizabeth Dole is defeated!  Serves her right for choosing to attack Kay Hagan by calling her an atheist.  I mean Jesus... she's not an atheist but SO WHAT IF SHE WAS???

NOTE: This story is chapter 2, the sequel to the previous chapter.  If you have not already read the first chapter, you will find it here.

---

Travel via quantum entanglement was essentially instantaneous, but the habitat still needed an hour or so to complete the final leg of the journey--a series of maneuvers using thrusters to approach and dock with Ellan and Tyr's habitat. Mara used the time to prepare herself. As she bathed she considered what Kennis had said about finding a new world upon which to create humans.

The idea was fraught with problems, really. Homo sapiens were what they were largely because of their environment. As products of natural selection and evolution, they were a perfect fit for Earth, and clearly would not be a fit anywhere else. This meant an enclosed environment, planetary engineering, or genetic surgery. An enclosed environment was the most practical, but hardly the sort of thing that humans would be satisfied with. How could they truly call their new world their own if they had to live in a box to dwell there? A large-scale colony habitat could be fashioned in space, but humans would immediately set out to leave it... they might even learn of Earth, go back there and destroy the new life that owned that world in a bid to reclaim the planet.

Engineering a world was possible but would be a massive effort. Altering the orbits and environments of planets was no small task. Given a suitably altered world, Mara would be able to repopulate the environment with the various species of Earth in a few tens-of-thousands of years. But to shift an orbit? Alter the gravitational properties of a planet? Refashion its atmosphere? This would require highly specialized equipment, exorbitant resources, and millions of years. While these things could be had, and the timeframe was largely irrelevant, the process would certainly require the assistance of other people, perhaps as many as a dozen. And wherever minds met, ideas changed--Mara's vision would become the property of a group, and would doubtless be altered. She might not end up with humans at all.

This left genetic surgery--essentially creating creatures that were mostly human, but engineered to dwell on a different world, a world which Mara and Kennis would have to find. One suitable for life, as close as possible to the environment of Earth, but lifeless. Finding such a world was only a matter of time. The real problem was the genomically altered humans--they would not be truly human. Further enough time in the alien environment, no matter how earthlike, would lead to evolution. How would the genomes of Earth compete on another world? Would the primates dominate the world as before? Or would natural selection favor some other species? Genomic preservation through the use of nanos was possible, but nano-enhanced humans would essentially be a different species--Homo lentus--that hardy species of humanity that had extended life spans, improved senses and agility, and a high resistance to disease and adverse environmental conditions. Homo lentus as a species did not last long simply because it rapidly completed the transformation to Homo immortalis. Homo sapiens needed to be created nano-free.

It was a thorny problem and Mara did not see an immediate way to a solution. Nor did she understand truly why she felt this curious motivation to recreate Homo sapiens. [Ten minutes to dock] the habitat informed her, via her network feed. She had spent too much time bathing and the skin of her fingertips had taken on a most amusing wrinkliness. Mara stood as the water drained away in the marble bath, and reached toward the towel bar. Immediately a towel materialized there, synthesized by the nanos which permeated the habitat, and Mara herself.

"It's quite unnecessary, my love, that you should bathe." Kennis said from the doorway.

Mara hadn't noticed Kennis standing there and offered up a small grin. Kennis was gently leaning on the doorframe contemplating Mara, much as Mara had done to her 24,000 years prior. She had not dressed. It was true; the nanos continually cleaned their bodies and their environment. Mara tilted her head to the side and began vigorously drying her hair with the towel.

"It may not be necessary, but I enjoy it. Does it bother you, my love?"

"On the contrary, it may be unnecessary but I could stand here and watch the water play over your body for centuries. I'm quite glad you do it."

"Oh Kennis, you silly girl, centuries in the bath? What would my skin look like after that?"

Kennis laughed then. That gentle but confident laughter that Mara so loved. Kennis was ever her strength. But this time there was a bit of mischief in it.

"I suspect we shall soon find out," she said as she turned to leave, "you'd best finish up. We dock soon."

"Are you not going to dress?" Mara called after her.

"No need," her voice filtered back from the corridor. Well that was also true, Mara supposed, but that would be another unnecessary activity that she nonetheless took pleasure in. With a gentle thud, the habitat rocked slightly as it docked with Ellan and Tyr's home.

Indeed, apart from a necklace of jade beads, Kennis was still nude when Mara rejoined her in the airlock. But Mara was resplendent in a fabulous red and gold dress and her hair had been carefully styled in layered tresses. Her eyes were bordered with dark makeup and gold rings adorned her ears, and her left nostril. She wore a braided gold chain about her neck, and a translucent golden scarf and veil on her head, beaded with small accents of gold and pearls. Golden polish had been applied to her fingernails and toenails, and she wore decorative sandals, also bedecked with gold.

"How do I look, love? Is it all unnecessary?" she asked Kennis, playfully.

"Sadly my darling, yes. You look lovely, but it won't last."

Mara was about to ask why when she noticed a red indicator flashing over the airlock door. The habitats had finished negotiating, and the indicator warned that the environment on the other side of the airlock door would not sustain them. [Destination environment incompatible with your biological requirements. If you wish to proceed please indicate your preference for assistive technology or biological adaptation.]

Just what sort of environment have Ellan and Tyr fashioned for themselves, Mara wondered.

The two immortals spoke simultaneously. "Assistive technology," Mara said. "Biological adaptation," Kennis said. Mara looked at her. "I do not like it when you change your body. I love you as you are."

"It's only for the duration of the visit, love, and I don't wish to lug around gear."

"Gear?" Mara asked and glanced down as a mist of nanos swirled up around her from the floor.

Rapidly the nanos disassembled her dress, sandals, jewelry, and veil, and replaced them with a red and gold wetsuit, swim fins, and small face mask. Special lenses formed over her eyes and air tanks materialized on her back. She looked back at Kennis. [Kennis, please be seated.]

A simple chair materialized beneath Kennis as she sat and waited for the nanos within her to receive their instructions. Mara watched as Kennis' skin changed from its smooth olive shade to a pale turquoise, and rapidly became scaly. Her nose receded and gill-slits formed on her neck. Kennis grinned at her reassuringly as her eyes changed, becoming larger and slightly more bulbous and richly green in the iris. The hair on her head became a deep emerald green as well, while the hair on the rest of her body vanished altogether. Finally her limbs changed--first lengthening in the long bones and digits, and then webbing grew between her fingertips, and her feet flattened into long wide fins.

"Ah, this is why I had to sit." Kennis noted as she gently pedaled her legs. Her voice sounded odd as well, like she was gargling. "Do I make a beautiful fish, my love?"

"I prefer you as you were, but even as a mermaid, you are quite lovely."

"Shall we be fish together?"

"I prefer to remain as I am."

"Suit yourself," Kennis said, glancing at Mara's wetsuit.

"Apparently I have."

[Biological adaptation complete. Kennis, please flex your gills.]

As Kennis wondered how exactly she would do that she found that somehow it was simply second nature... just a variation on breathing. Her gills opened and closed but didn't seem to provide her with any air.

"I can flex them but I am getting lightheaded unless I breathe through my mouth."

[That's fine. Your gills will only function properly underwater, provided you actuate them. If you forget, your nanos will actuate them automatically. Eventually you will use them without thinking. Your lungs will function if you choose to breathe through your mouth. Please do not attempt to do so underwater.]

"Thanks. I'll try to remember that," she said, with a hint of sarcasm.

[Sorry Kennis. Of course you will. Mara is your breathing apparatus functioning to your satisfaction?]

Mara took a breath through her mask and gave a thumbs up sign.

[Mara is your breathing apparatus functioning to your satisfaction?]

"Yes." she transmitted through her network port. "When I raise my thumb like this, it is an affirmative response."

[Noted. Your oxygen tank will self-replenish more rapidly than your lungs will consume air. Please wait while the environment is equalized.]

From small vents in the floor warm briny water with a slight green coloration began filling the chamber. It rose rapidly and quietly and very soon covered their heads.

"Hab, why is this water green?" Kennis gargled.

[It is inhabited by microorganisms native to the oceans of the fourth planet around Regulus. They will not damage your biology.]

"Thank you."

Mara glanced up at her formerly carefully styled hair, now floating about her head like so much seaweed. "Kennis, you knew about this didn't you?" she transmitted through her network port.

Kennis held up one webbed thumb with a half grin. "When I raise my thumb like this..." she began, but by then her lungs were empty of air and so the remaining words were lost.

"Well why did you not tell me so?"

"Because my love, if I had I would not have gotten to see you bathe or see you dressed like a princess from Delhi. A lie of omission, but I made this one only because I so love to see you in all your incarnations. For what it is worth, you appear graceful in your wetsuit," Kennis transmitted.

Mara stood, gloved hands on hips, and simply stared at Kennis.

"Lithe and attractive."

More wordless staring.

"Like a sleek, kind, stunningly brilliant, um... red-and-gold sea lion."

"Kennis. You are incorrigible," Mara transmitted, but she grinned all the same. It was truly impossible for her to be mad at Kennis.

"Hab, how can I vocalize when my lungs are empty?"

[Your larynx has been compartmentalized with your gills. Should you choose to do so you can draw water through your gills into your larynx and expel it through your mouth while vocalizing. You should find this form of vocalization most proximate to your original voice. Your nanos will manage this function for you until you are able to do it yourself.]

Kennis tried to speak aloud, and found her gills drawing water in quite automatically.

"Ah, thank you Hab. That's much better," she responded her voice sounding quite normal.

[You're welcome Kennis. Equalization is complete. Please enjoy your visit with Ellan and Tyr.]

With a whir, the airlock door opened to the dimly lit interior of the other habitat. Immediately Mara and Kennis found themselves surrounded by all manner of strange aquatic creatures. Tiny orange three-legged squid, golden sheet like animals with no visible fins, globe-shaped creatures which vaguely resembled jellyfish, and several varieties of what appeared to be fish, but not like the fishes of Earth. These creatures had a surfeit of fins, to the point where they almost looked feathered instead of scaled. Each had a number of greater fins which were like long whirling streamers--they did not appear to be useful for locomotion, perhaps they were for mating displays. These fish appeared in many colors and sizes, from small black ones the size of a fingernail to red or purple hand-sized ones and ever increasing combinations of size and color. There were two that were at least 5 feet long, all white, with their great streamer-fins swirling about them. The walls crawled with strange shellfish and three-legged starfish, tubes from which the heads of snakelike creatures would repeatedly rush out and then as quickly retract inward and dimly luminescent balls of fluff rolling about in long strands of grass like sea-plants.

Ellan and Tyr were nowhere in sight. "Strange that they would not be here to greet us," Mara transmitted to Kennis.

[Greetings Mara and Kennis. Welcome to the habitat of Ellan and Tyr. You have been granted full guest access to all habitat functions.]

"Thank you Hab," Mara transmitted, "where are Ellan and Tyr?"

[I have been instructed not to answer that question.]

Kennis laughed. "My love, I think Tyr is having one of her games with us: hide and seek. Let us hope she is here in the habitat. The last time we played hide and seek with Tyr, it involved several hundred years exploring the ice fissures of Europa."

"It could be fun. Shall we look?"

"Why not?" Kennis shrugged and then swam a few meters into the habitat, her strong legs propelling her forward. She stopped and hovered there glancing left and right as curious fish approached her and then darted away. Truly Mara could not help but marvel at how beautiful she was, even in this merfolk form. Their habitat understood Kennis and Mara's tastes and had made the changes as aesthetically as possible. Once again Mara appreciated this as her love hovered, her skin covered in turquoise scales, but with a pattern of indigo diamonds running down her spine and terminating just above her buttocks. Each diamond was perhaps 10 cm high by 3 cm wide, except the last, which was twice the size of the others.

"Are you coming?" Kennis asked, turning to look at her. At the noise the fish retreated en-masse, only to return again, slowly.

"Yes of course, just contemplating you my love."

Mara kicked off from the floor and joined Kennis inside and together they began by swimming the periphery of the habitat. Unlike their own home, Ellan and Tyr's seemed to be configured as a single chamber. The habitats were of comparable sizes, about 300 meters long by 200 meters wide by 10 meters high, which seemed all the more enormous when the entire space was a single chamber. There was nothing to compartmentalize the space by function, and no furniture of any sort was evident. The floor seemed to be covered with fine sand and outcroppings of stone upon which the various sea-life grew.

"It's basically a giant aquarium," Kennis noted, echoing Mara's thoughts.

"It's marvelous isn't it? Not the sort of environment I would choose to live in, but still it is quite amazing. Such varieties of life."

Kennis nodded. "Yes, I--oh, Mara we seem to have acquired some friends."

Mara looked back to find they were being trailed by a school of yellow streamer-fish, several red fish, perhaps six blue fish, and the two largest fish they had spotted earlier.

"Curious creatures," Mara transmitted. Then she removed her mask briefly and said "Boo!" At this all of the fish scattered except the two largest, their great white fins fanning out gently around them. "Kennis, these ones do not fear us."

"At that size, it's not surprising. Besides we likely have no analog in their environment, so unless we do something obviously threatening, they have no reason to fear us."

Mara swam closer to the two giant fish. The fish backed off slightly, but did not retreat.

"On the other hand, Mara, we may have reason to fear them."

"I hardly think Ellan and Tyr would fill their habitat with dangerous creatures and then invite us to simply wander about without warning. I sense no threat from these animals."

[You are not in danger in this habitat. None of the creatures here see you as a food source.]

"See?"

"Well..."

"Oh Kennis, ever my protector," Mara noted with a smile. She swam a little closer to the large streamer-fish, and again they backed away slightly, but not as far as she approached. She was closing the distance. She took off her mask again, letting it dangle. "It's alright," she cooed quietly, "I will not harm you." She held her mask to her face long enough to take a breath and then swam a little closer, again murmuring gentle reassurances. The fish did not retreat further.

"I think they must be a mated pair, Kennis. Where are their young do you think?"

"Perhaps all around us," Kennis transmitted, not wanting to alarm the fish now that Mara was so close.

"You think these colorations might denote age rather than species?"

"Anything is possible, I suppose. I note that each successively larger specimen is a lighter shade than the previous. The smallest ones are black, and these two are the only white ones I see. It could perhaps indicate age."

Closer and closer she edged, until she was within arm's reach of the pair. Carefully she removed one glove and reached out to touch one of the great fish.

"Mara..." Kennis warned, "I wish you wouldn't."

"Hush Kennis. It's all right."

Her hand finally settled gently on the side of the fish's face. There were no gills evident. The skin of the animal was warm to the touch, and the multitude of tiny fins gently undulated under her palm in a peculiar rhythm. It tickled and Mara smiled. Then her brow furrowed as she noted a distinct pattern in the beats of the tiny fins. It is not regular, and not random, Mara thought to herself. Then she realized what it was and drew her hand away in surprise.

"Kennis, these are sentient creatures," she transmitted.

"But there is no mention of sentient life on Regulus-4 in any of Ellan's or Tyr's books, or indeed in any books ever published."

"Maybe they have not told anyone else of this species. But they are sentient. This being just tapped out a series of primes on my palm."

"What?"

The fish she had touched suddenly drew closer and stretched out one of its great fins toward her. "Kennis!" Mara said in alarm, forgetting to transmit. The fish froze but did not retreat.

"Mara are you alright?" Kennis said agitatedly.

[Mara is not in danger. These fish will not harm her.]

"Hab, why are the sentient variety of this genus not on record in the literature?" Kennis asked, a bit sharply.

[I have been instructed not to answer that question.]

"Well what is the exact nature of this species?"

[I have been instructed not to answer that question.]

"Kennis, it's alright, I was just startled. Of course they are as curious about me as I am about them. I touched this fish, and it is only fair that it should be allowed to touch me," she transmitted.

Mara took another breath from her mask. "It's alright," she said soothingly, "go ahead." The fish continued reaching toward her and gently stroked the side of her face, once downward and three times up. Mara's brow furrowed again and again the fish repeated the almost loving caress, once downward and three times up. It was then as Mara gazed into the fish's eyes her own widened suddenly in recognition. The fish drifted in close and planted three soft kisses on her forehead. One over her left eye, one over her right, and a third higher up in the center--a triangle of kisses. A thin whisper escaped its lips, uttering three distinct phrases--one for each kiss.

"Sim salem, sim salom, sim salaam."

Then it waited a moment, drew close one more time and, as Mara knew it would, planted one last kiss in the center of the triangle. They spoke the fourth phrase together.

"Sim sey."

She finally understood, and had she not been underwater, the tears she was shedding would be evident to all. But the fish knew.

"A Tyr so zuzu," it said, and then backed away from her. As one, the two fish turned and began swimming slowly toward the center of the habitat.

Kennis' scaly arms wrapped around her from behind and held her close.

"That was amazing my love. You actually communicated with it? What a remarkable creature!"

"Yes, she is."

"Oh is that the female?"

"They are both female."

"I heard her speaking to you, but the language was not on record."

"This is true, but I know it nonetheless. She said 'sim salem, sim salom, sim salaam'--'love the mind, love the body, love the being'."

"And 'sim sey'?"

"Love you. And then she saw I was weeping and said 'a Tyr so zuzu'."

"Meaning?"

"No tears for Tyr."

"Ah, is she taking us to Tyr then?"

"Kennis, she is Tyr. And I assume the other one is Ellan."

"What?"

"We have found them, come, let's join them habcenter. It's been too long."

She reattached her mask, and the conversation continued as they swam after Ellan and Tyr, with Kennis vocalizing and Mara transmitting.

"I had no idea such extensive biological adaptation was possible. All the adaptives I've seen have been humanoid." Kennis observed.

"You mean you haven't been playing along this whole time?"

"Not at all. I knew Ellan and Tyr were studying the sea creatures of Regulus-4, and I knew they dwelled in an aqueous hab, but I did not know about this. Apparently they have modeled their entire biology on the species native to Regulus-4. Doubtless they could swim its seas unaided and blend right in. Amazing."

"My poor Tyr."

Kennis seemed not to notice. They were arriving at the center of the hab. Here the stones formed a semicircle. Opposite the entrance of the semicircle stood three triangular stones. Two next to each other and just touching and a third balanced atop them so the apex of the two beneath supported it by the ends of its base. This formed a fourth triangle of empty space between them, which pointed downward. Ellan and Tyr waited by this sculpture, hovering in place with their undulating fins.

"Kennis, my friend, welcome. You have found us." Ellan said, her voice issuing clearly from the fish on the left.

"It was Mara who found you, really, she somehow intuited your mate was Tyr, and concluded by deduction that you were Ellan. I confess I did not recognize you."

"I am not surprised. If anyone would recognize Tyr, Mara would."

Kennis glanced back at Mara, who seemed to have stopped at the entrance to the semicircle. Then she looked back at the sculpture and nodded to Tyr while pointing to the lower left, then the lower right, and then the top triangle.

"Salem, Salom, and Salaam?"

"You are most astute Kennis. Yes, the triangles represent the mind, the body, and the being in that configuration." She turned toward Mara. "You told."

"I did not."

"Then how does she know the tongue?"

"You spoke it in her presence. I was obliged to translate your words for her. Kennis is brilliant, and exceptionally gifted at language."

"No doubt she is."

"Love, what tongue do you speak of?" Ellan asked Tyr.

"Amaratyr."

"I've never heard of this tongue. Have you Kennis?"

"No."

"It is a language Mara and I created," she glanced at Mara, "for each other."

"Oh of course," Ellan said, "that makes perfect sense."

"It does?" Kennis asked, glancing back at Mara.

"Kennis, my dear, there was a time before our time together you know. Amaratyr is a lover's tongue. Tyr was my first love. She and I were together for 57,122 years. We parted 488,905 years ago but remain friends."

"You never mentioned this to me before."

"My love, be not jealous, what matters is our life with each other. We agreed not to discuss previous relationships a quarter-million years ago."

"I'm not jealous, just feeling a bit daft. The last time we visited our friends I joked with Tyr about your lovable quirks and idiosyncrasies, and probably bored her to tears with information she already knew."

"You didn't bore me Kennis; I have enjoyed our discussions and our correspondence immensely. Mara has never stopped being a favorite topic of mine. She will always hold a place in my heart. I took pleasure in seeing her through your eyes."

Mara grinned, but remained at the entrance to the circle.

"My goodness Mara, will you please come in? You were happy to touch me when you thought I was a flamboyant tuna, now that I am one of your best friends you are afraid to approach? Shall we have the hab reassure you again?"

[You are in no danger Mara. Tyr will not--]

"Hab, I was speaking rhetorically."

[Sorry.]

Mara swam into the circle, and Ellan approached her.

"Mara it has been too long. I have so enjoyed your books."

"And I yours Ellan. I visited Ganymede after you published your geological survey. It was fascinating."

"Indeed she spent seventy years there," Kennis added.

"You are too kind. I caught the dedication in your book on Earth's satellite Luna. Thank you."

Mara nodded then glanced at Tyr.

"Yes you must approach me too. Just like the last time we visited."

Kennis and Ellan laughed.

"Go on Mara, what troubles you? You and Tyr were practically inseparable when they last visited us,” Kennis said.

Mara did not respond, but communicated volumes to Kennis in her expression.

"Come on Ellan, I think these two need to speak privately. Why don't you take me on a tour of these many creatures you share your home with?"

"I would be delighted. Will you be well, love?" She asked.

"Yes, my dear, go on. Kennis has published some works on the former sea life of Earth; I think you will find her very informed. There will be much to share."

Tyr watched them swim away, and then turned back to Mara. "She's lovely, Mara. You chose well."

Mara looked at her.

"But that is not what you wish to discuss is it? Nor have you suddenly had second thoughts about us. This is about me, isn't it?"

Mara nodded.

"You have been wrestling with a dilemma. The idea of recreating Homo sapiens has caught your fancy, but Earth is no longer available. And that leaves you only three options, of which the most viable involves genetically modified humans."

"You are incredibly perceptive, that has indeed been a dilemma for me. But it is not what it is bothering me now."

"Oh but it is. You see the problem is not what you think it is. The problem is that you are taking a superficial view."

"Excuse me?"

"My dear, you are disturbed because I have altered my biology to this form--the Vipara, one of the most beautiful fish on Regulus-4. You love me--but as I was. In this form you see only what you have lost. No hand to hold, no lips to kiss, no hair to smell, yes?"

"My Tyr was human."

"And Ellan's Tyr is not? Am I not human? Am I not truly human? How far has our species come that you should still cling to romantic notions about meat? The being is paramount, not the body. The brain within this Vipara body is human. The mind within this body is human. And you know it."

"I still miss you as you were."

"Love, you knew I was Tyr. I didn't have to tell you. I saw it in your eyes. You saw me in mine. I am still the Tyr you love, in every bit of my being. This outward appearance is only that. It is not healthy for you to be so preoccupied with superficialities. Come here."

Mara approached, and Tyr wrapped her great fins around and around her. Her body temperature was higher than Mara's and Mara felt quite warm and safe in her embrace... almost swaddled.

"Would you not wish to hold Kennis like this? Would you not wish for Kennis to hold you like this?"

Mara said nothing, but luxuriated in the warmth and closeness.

"It is not arms and thudding hearts that make an embrace a human embrace. It is the human mind that does so. Understand, my love?"

Mara nodded and Tyr released her. Her heart really was thudding. Tyr had been an amazing partner to her--a brilliant mind--but in the end, Mara could not provide what Tyr needed and so they had agreed to separate. There was no denying the attraction was still there, of course.

"It is this romantic superficiality that caused you to enter my home with that archaic wetsuit and breathing apparatus, instead of more sensibly adjusting your biology to suit the environment. I suppose it bothered you that Kennis altered herself."

Tyr's perception was as sharp as ever. When they were together Mara often found that Tyr could explain her own feelings better than she herself could.

"Yes."

"You deny yourself the full range of human experience then. When I swim it is like flight. I perceive the motion of the fluid in ways you do not, I see beauty you do not. When I choose to dance there are so many things I can do with this body that I could not do with my bipedal primate body. Biological adaptation is now a human ability, why not use it? Indeed one might argue that to not use it is to not be fully human."

"I had not considered that perspective."

"Well then, a fresh perspective makes a fine seed for new thought. So let us not belabor the point. But consider it. And you might find that doing so solves your dilemma--genetically modified humans are still humans, as long as they possess human minds."

How simply she put it. She was right, Mara realized, she had been taking a superficial view.

"Although personally if you want to create humans, I think you should just breed with Kennis."

"Not that again. You sound like my mothers."

"Well okay. Enough preaching for one visit I suppose." Tyr said with a laugh. "It is good to see you again Mara."

"It is nice to see you too, Tyr."

Ellan was explaining to Kennis the chemical pathways that gave rise to the bioluminescence of the Vurn Orbs nesting on the habitat walls when a voice called out from behind them.

"Kennis, Ellan, shall we go for a swim?"

It was Mara with Tyr chasing behind her. Kennis did a double take, as she had never seen Mara with adapted biology. But Mara had indeed changed herself to match Kennis in appearance, but had chosen to give herself a golden coloration with dark amber spots. Kennis stared open-mouthed.

"What? I tired of lugging around gear. Am I that repulsive?"

"You are glorious, my love." She turned to Tyr, "I don't know what you said to her, but I have long worried that she was missing out on some great experiences, so whatever it was, thank you."

"Yes, thank you Tyr," Mara added and then turned back to Kennis, "she also may have solved my other dilemma."

"Clearly. We can now see what too much time in the bath will do to your skin."

"Oh my," Ellan said, "Kennis you are incorrigible."

"You have no idea," Mara said, but with an inexhaustible grin she continued, "Tyr has invited us to swim in the open seas of Regulus-4. Will you come, Kennis?"

"My dear of course I will come."

"Well let's go then. I want to swim!" and off she raced.

"I think perhaps she was a fish all along." Kennis said with a laugh.

"Weren't we all?" Ellan asked.

Mara finished her book and wandered into the atrium Kennis had entered a few days earlier.

"What are you doing Kennis?"

"I am watching the moon."

"Why?"

"It pleases me to do so, Mara."

"Will you do so awhile longer then?"

"For at least a thousand more years."

Folding her delicate arms, Mara leaned against the doorway and stared at her. Kennis sat, legs folded, mouth slightly open, her olive skin and brown eyes awash in the moonlight that poured through the windows of the atrium and bathed her slight features.

"Will you stand there and study me all night?" Kennis asked without turning to look at her.

"Yes, for a thousand years as it so pleases me."

With a faint exhale Kennis smiled and glanced down with a smirk.

"My love you have forgotten the moon..." Mara admonished coyly.

She looked back at Mara, with her hair rimmed by the moonlight. Her eyes, even darker in silhouette, held a mischeivous promise floating in a sea of devotion. "But I have remembered something more important."

With a playful glance over her shoulder Mara feigned ignorance. "Whatever could that be? A star perhaps? I may have spotted one out of the library window."

In a fluid motion Kennis rose, her silk kimono changing from aqua to burgundy as she approached. Her message was clear, Mara looked down and changed her simple white sari into a demure amber robe in response.

"And after that, shall we sleep?" Mara asked.

"It has been many years."

"Seven hundred and twelve."

"Do you remember how?"

"Do you remember the last time either of us forgot anything?"

Kennis leaned in close, her kimono faintly disappating in wisps of wine-scented mist, "I forgot the moon a moment ago." The kiss was sweet, long, and pulled gently at something deep within Mara... something she had indeed forgotten.

For many days afterward they laid on the couch by the atrium window in each others arms, their garments a pool of particulate mist on the floor nearby, and watched the moon together.

"What did you write about?" Kennis finally asked.

"When?"

"The day you entered the atrium and spoke to me. I assume you wrote a book that day."

"I write a book every day."

"And on that day?"

"I wrote about humans."

"What species?"

"Homo sapiens."

"Ah, our progenitor species. May I read it?" Kennis asked.

"My love you may read any book I publish, and even those I don't."

Kennis closed her eyes and became quiet. Mara stared at the moon. Kennis was right, it was pleasing to do. Perhaps her next book would be about the moon. Kennis smiled and opened her eyes.

"That was wonderful, you almost make them appealing."

"There was among them everything that gave rise to us, my love, to you, and I find much appealing in you."

"And I in you, Mara, but there was also among them everything that led to their extinction."

"Nothing that couldn't be cured with education."

Kennis raised one eyebrow at her.

"Well, " she smirked, "maybe that and a little genetic surgery."

"Shall we try to repopulate the species?"

"I think I would like that, as long as we don't have to impersonate deities."

"Shall we do it tomorrow?"

"No, Earth must process the poisons in its environment before humans can survive there."

"Nanos."

"No. No nanos. Else they would not be Homo sapiens, but Homo lentus."  Mara said.

"Not without genetic surgery--"

"Which the nanos would automatically perform."

Kennis thought a moment. "Shall we create them on the moon then? Construct an environment for them?"

"Humans belong on Earth. They are bound to that world, genetically suited to live there. This was the birthplace of Homo immortalis--but we are suited to dwell anywhere."

"Do you not worry that the humans will simply make wars again? Poison their world again? I deeply felt your sentiment for them, but they are barely out of the realm of the apes, they will fight over anything, and are able to maintain such cognitive dissonance that they will destroy their own environment and doom their own species. Do you really think education can save their species, preserve it?"

"Why not?"

"Because, my dear, education was what caused the division in the species last time. Homo lentus was the result of those humans who actively worked to improve their species. The only thing that 'preserved' Homo sapiens were those who willfully remained uneducated out of fealty to mythological creatures. Right up until they destroyed themselves. It's perverse to be favored by natural selection because of your intelligence and refuse to use it--a lemming gene at work perhaps."

"I should still like to try."

Kennis closed her eyes briefly and then reopened them. "Latest estimates are 36,000 years before the Earth has processed all of the poisons in its environment."

"Shall we sleep until then?"

"I think I should like that. What books will you write while we sleep?"

"I have three I started while we made love that I need to finish, and then I think I shall write one about the Moon."

"You didn't finish? Was I that distracting?"

"Yes, although one I cannot finish."

"Why not?"

"I don't know how it ends." Mara yawned. "I have not felt tired for many centuries. This is a peculiar sensation."

She reached out with one arm and touched a finger to the pool of mist on the floor. Immediately the mist swam over them and solidified into a patchwork quilt of subtle grays resembling the lunar surface.

Kennis watched Mara sleep for a day and then turned her attention to the Earth outside the atrium window, shrouded in soupy haze. She doubted the wisdom of returning to the planet the species that had proven so ill-equipped to look after it. Mara's book about the moon was published while Kennis contemplated the Earth, and Kennis found it as fascinating as Ellan's volume on the geology of Ganymede and forwarded it to her to read. Mara's voice floated unbidden into her consciousness, woven into the stream of information entering her network receiver. I thought you were going to sleep with me.

Sorry love, I was thinking. I loved your book on the moon.

Do you not wish to sleep?

I might enjoy looking at you more than sleeping.

Come nestle in my mind with me, let our thoughts tangle together in wonderful disarray. There will be plenty of time to sort them out later.

I can do that with my eyes open, Mara.

Try feeling tired. Your biology will take over from there.

Kennis felt tired, and soon she slept. Once she was no longer conscious, all of the furnishings apart from the couch and blanket immediately dissolved into mist and disappeared through vents near the floor to be stored until needed. The habitat maintained its position automatically and carefully so that the light reflected from the moon would pass through the atrium window and illuminate the photosynthetic skin of the sleepers for many thousands of years.

"Mara, wake up." Kennis said.

Mara opened her eyes. "Did I oversleep?"

"No. It has only been 24,078 years, but there has been a development."

"What happened?"

"See for yourself." Kennis said, indicating the window.

Mara glanced out and was shocked to discover the Earth was unshrouded and most of the landmasses were a glorious shade of orange.

"Is this a predicted stage in the processing of the poisons?"

"No. There is a new species of life on this planet borne out of the poisonous environment, which has converted the pollutants into new compounds and created a new state of equilibrium."

"Suitable for Homo sapiens?"

"Not remotely. I checked with Ellan and Tyr and they have modeled it is likely that this species will achieve sentience in a few million years. I'm afraid that Earth does not belong to Homo sapiens anymore."

"No return to Eden, " Mara said softly. A small tear travelled down her cheek. She touched it and glanced at her finger, with a faint mote of puzzlement on her brow.

"I assume the moon is off limits, then?" Kennis asked.

"Of course, it belongs to this new species." Mara said.

"Perhaps another world? There are thousands that might suffice."

"Perhaps. I think I am going to miss looking at the moon."

"We can remain here for a few million years and contemplate it. Maybe get to know this new species when they venture forth from their world."

"No. Let's leave. This was our birthplace, and it is about time we left the nursery and explored our universe. It has been nearly 100,000 years since we last saw Ellan and Tyr."

"What about making humans?"

"Call it a romantic notion."

"Your book on the idea received some great reviews."

"Another time maybe."

Sensing the subject closed for the time being, Kennis closed her eyes and cast out the sensor net.

"Ellan and Tyr are at Regulus. They would love to have us for a few years. We can be under way immediately if you like."

Mara glanced thoughtfully at the Earth for a moment and then rose from the couch, wrapped the blanket around her and left the atrium.

"Well I'd best make myself presentable then."

In the harsh light of Sol, the habitat finally pivoted away from the moon, wavered in many shades and colors, and then vanished.

The orange world waited for those who would give it a new name.

---

NOTE: I wrote the above story fragment off the cuff in a forum I frequent.  You can find the original post here.

"What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous ... it's dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists! This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God. Get out of that seat ... You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon."

-- Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago), speaking to atheist Rob Sherman

If Rob Sherman was a Jew or a Muslim or a Methodist or anything but an atheist, Representative Monique Davis would be openly castigated from every direction (and deservedly so).  But it's okay to hate atheists here.  Welcome to my country.

Mr. Sherman was testifying to the Illinois House State Government Administration Committee about a one million dollar grant slated to go to a Baptist church that was trying to rebuild from a fire.  As you know churches already don't pay taxes, so it seems rather curious that anyone would think it okay for tax money to go to a church--especially in a country where church and state are supposed to be separate.  The grant money story is pretty smelly all on its own, but I am not at all surprised that any outspoken atheist would have an opinion on the matter, and might choose to testify to government bodies on the matter.

But Monique Davis feels otherwise.  She feels atheists have no right to testify to the American government.  And for that matter we are destroyers, and dangerous to children.  And it's okay to censor or silence us.  Oh and the country was founded on Christian principles.

How does someone like this even get elected in the first place? Shame on you Monique Davis.  You madam, are no Democrat.

Hat tip to the excellent science blog Pharyngula for the story.  You won't be hearing about it on Fox.

So I watched an overly long atheist/theist debate on YouTube the other day.  It was held by an American Muslim organization and featured two Muslim debaters and two atheist debaters.  It was depressing and nightmarish to watch.  I thought the atheists did a horrible job, frankly, and let the other side get away with dodgy logic and word games.  In their defense the environment wasn't friendly to them in the least, but they weren't really doing anything that would have won the crowd over.

After the sorry affair was over, I found myself wondering what possesses atheists to want to debate the existence of God or Allah or what-have-you.  I can understand giving a talk, taking questions and answers, writing an essay, but a debate?  Would you debate the existence of the tooth fairy?  What's the point?

We hold political debates to see how potential representatives think on their feet, but not to find the truth.  As I have long noted, debates are not about truth, they are about winning, and this is precisely why I do not like them.  You get people playing semantical games with each other and trying to win over the audience instead of working together to reach truth or at least understanding.  And since the most outspoken debaters tend to insult each other, or each other's position, they do little to convince anyone of anything.  Instead these events tend to drive wedges between people instead of bring them together.

So if it is about winning as opposed to truth, what good does debating the existence of supernatural entities serve?  Even if you win you haven't proved anything beyond the fact that you are the better debater.

Personally I think irrational beliefs are not the sort of thing you want to try to debate--your theistic opponents will simply expand their belief beyond the boundaries you try to set for them--whether it makes sense or not.  And why wouldn't they?  The beliefs were irrational in the first place.  As the old saw goes you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.